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  #16  
Old 04-28-2022, 05:27 PM
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Ti Designs Ti Designs is offline
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Originally Posted by Peter P. View Post
Wealthy bike owners equate price with coddling and accuracy.
I know that lots of fitters claim they can put a rider in the perfect position, I'm not one of them. It's not that they're better at fitting than I am, it's that I'm honest about accuracy in fitting and how the body will change. I've made two corrections on my own fit this year, how could I tell a client that they're in the perfect position?

When I was at Serotta fit school they had this spreadsheet that would give you handlebar position based on stem length, stem angle and spacer height. A number of the students spent half the class trying out different stem angles and lengths to get within 1mm of their target. Different handlebar tape will make more of a difference. It's pointless accuracy.

Coddling? Really??
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  #17  
Old 04-28-2022, 05:43 PM
rallizes rallizes is offline
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Last edited by rallizes; 04-28-2022 at 06:26 PM.
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  #18  
Old 04-28-2022, 07:35 PM
leftyfreak leftyfreak is offline
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Not adding anything useful to this thread, but I just noticed that Ti Design's post count is equal to the altitude at the summit of Mt. Washington. Coincidence?
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  #19  
Old 04-28-2022, 07:58 PM
Peter P. Peter P. is offline
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Originally Posted by Ti Designs View Post
Coddling? Really??
F. Scott Fitzgerald wrote: "Let me tell you about the very rich. They are different from you and me."

Yes, really. Think of it similar to a spa treatment, in the sense of devoted, personal attention. It may not accomplish anything tangible but that's not important. It's the PERCEPTION.
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  #20  
Old 04-28-2022, 09:47 PM
Taymob Taymob is offline
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I think its more useful for people with known issues. Like spine or knee problems. Otherwise I'd go for just a normal fit and then make micro adjustments on your own.
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  #21  
Old 04-29-2022, 07:46 PM
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I think its more useful for people with known issues. Like spine or knee problems. Otherwise I'd go for just a normal fit and then make micro adjustments on your own.
OK, I'll admit that I go over the time I'm allowed to do a fitting when dealing with complex problems (the human body on a bike is a long series of complex problems). That said, any change I make in position is going to cause an adaptive change with the body. If I make one or two changes I know what to look for. If I make 6 changes I have no idea what to expect two weeks later. This is where a 3 or 4 hour fitting where they fix everything is like the Remington electric razor ad - "close as a blade or your money back". It can't be as close as a blade, but they know that 99% of the people won't be able to tell the difference.

The computerized systems add an interesting twist. The ones that are accurate enough (Retul with a competent person putting on the markers) can tell differences between the sides. The challenge then is to find a fitter who both uses that system and understands how the body works. Most of the fitters I've seen using those systems know how to use the software, but couldn't explain how the knee works. The fitters who know what to look for don't use they scanning systems because they make things so much slower.

I do see the value in a system like Retul. I do 4 - 5 fittings a day, I'm not going to remember what I did on a fitting last week (I've gotten pretty good at watching someone pedal and guessing at all the corrections made). Information about the changes made and the adaptations of the body would be a great help. Too bad it's only positional information... The only thing you can see is positional information - where the feet are, how the knees are tracking, hip movement... Injuries are caused by force, not displacement. There are now cranks and pedals that can show force vectors. A good example of their use is the pain some people get just over the hip, just on one side. If you look at the force vectors you'll notice a greater forward component to the force vectors on that side - they have a longer femur. The result of that force is the muscles over the iliac ridge never come out of tension. That's your pain.
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  #22  
Old 04-29-2022, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Peter P. View Post
Yes, really. Think of it similar to a spa treatment, in the sense of devoted, personal attention. It may not accomplish anything tangible but that's not important. It's the PERCEPTION.
Given a choice between doing a job well or getting paid well to do nothing, I would always take on the job that required results.
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  #23  
Old 04-29-2022, 08:55 PM
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Hellgate Hellgate is offline
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My .02.5 cents...

In my shop days, late '80's early 90's, I fit maybe 100 people for production bikes. The outcome was very good 98.2+% of the time.

While most of this forum will grown and say I'm full of ****, it's BS, and based on nothing, I used my version of KOPS. I'll explain...

First, I have the person walk away from me then towards me the length of the shop twice. This told me their natural foot orientation.

With that I set their cleats, ball over spindle, angle aligned with their walk study.

Then put their bike on a turbo trainer with the front wheel blocked to parallel.

Have them pedal in an easy gear for several minutes while I chatted with them. This relaxed them so they didn't focus on the bike or trainer.

Then I told them to slowly pedal to a stop so the crank arms are parallel to the ground.

Next I held a piece of string with a washer tied to it to the back of their knee cap and looked to see where it fell.

Then I moved the saddle fore or aft until the string was near the spindle within one cm fore or aft. Sometimes it required a different seat post.

Next I had them pedal in the same gear as before and asked them how the change felt. Nine times out of ten they said it felt good. I then told them to be honest as this isn't about me, but how they feel.

If that was good the stem was next. Hands on the hoods elbows slightly bent, head forward, eyes looking at the bar, "Where is the front axle in relation to the bar?" I can't see it. "Perfect." Or change stem until it algins. This was pre Aheadset stem days so I rewrapped lots of bars.

At the same time bars were measured to shoulder width, inside dent, not outside.

We were a higher volume Bianchi, Cannondale, GT, Nishiki, Terry shop so I had plenty to take offs to swap with. Or, they could buy up to Deda, etc.

That process cycled usually twice, sometimes three times to refine the fit. Then I'd grab my bike and I'd go ride with the client for 10 to 15 minutes. I'd make adjustments based on my eye, my eye is very good BTW, and/or their feedback.

For some clients, like my GT Pro Shop customers, I go out on a full road or mountain bike ride with them. I had a pocket full of tools. I was a CAT2 then so it was seldom an issue, except for the time my client/friend's Crohons kicked in about 20 miles outside of Boulder. Poor Brent.

Typically the process took 30 minutes, sometimes, 10 minutes, sometimes 5+ hours. I wasn't paid a penny more, $8.00 per hour then. But I loved my job and I had clients lined up. For the GT Pro Shop peeps, if they brought pizza, beer, good liquor, we'd go to the shop after hours and I'd build their bike while they watched tips of $100.00+. Imagine a GT Xizang with a full Mavic mountain group, and I built custom wheels for them.

The only client I couldn't get a perfect fit was woman who had really bad pain in her labia region. I tried Terry saddles, every adjustment, and the conversation turned to very specific female body parts. I finally told her I don't know what more I can do a suggested she see her Dr and OBGYN.

But, the majority of the time I nailed it! Well, you know what I mean.

Fast forward to my personal custom bikes and my most recent S5, I let the builder fit me, only my measurements. Guess what? It fell to KOPS, then I adjust, think Eddy stopping in a race to adjust on feel So there. Those of you who have never sized or fit a person have no ground to stand on.

Sent from my SM-G781U1 using Tapatalk

Last edited by Hellgate; 04-29-2022 at 09:00 PM.
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  #24  
Old 04-29-2022, 10:23 PM
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Ti Designs Ti Designs is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellgate View Post
My .02.5 cents...

In my shop days, late '80's early 90's, I fit maybe 100 people for production bikes. The outcome was very good 98.2+% of the time.

While most of this forum will grown and say I'm full of ****, it's BS, and based on nothing, I used my version of KOPS. I'll explain...

A little edit on this response:

As I said at the start of this thread, my basic goals of a fittings are rather simple. Keep the rider within range of motion in all directions and teach them how to get the weight on their pedals (not their hands). People tend to ignore that first part, it's hard to notice such tiny forces. The problem isn't the tiny force it's your body's response to that force and how many times it happens. There's this thing called a pull reflex, if pull on a muscle it's reflex is to contract. My best guess is that this is a built-in teaching tool which allows you to map muscles (I've spent far too much time watching kids learn how to walk in my efforts to understand motor learning). The problem comes in when you attach a machine to a human limb and have it go beyond range of motion, like having the saddle of a bike too high. The crank exceeds the range of motion of the leg, while it's still moving away from the hip it pulls down on the foot which acts as a lever arm connected to the anterior tibialis. The anterior tibialis (muscle on the outside of your shin that lifts your foot/toes) has a pull reflex. You now have two opposing forces, the pedal that's going away from your hip and that pull reflex that's trying to reduce that distance. In the battle between the human body and the machine, the human body never wins... That happens 80ish times per minute for as long as you're on the bike. Goal #1 in a fitting - reduce destructive force. How does KOPS do that??? (the answer to that is by accident, sometimes).
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Last edited by Ti Designs; 04-30-2022 at 06:43 AM.
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  #25  
Old 04-29-2022, 11:12 PM
mhespenheide mhespenheide is offline
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I will only say that one of my regrets of being in MA for one year was not making the time and space to come down and get a fit from you. It was during COVID, but thought about it a number of times and then got headhunted back to the West Coast. I don't know that there's anything wrong with my current fit, but I'm curious what you might have pointed out as issues to work on.
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  #26  
Old 04-30-2022, 02:03 AM
Taymob Taymob is offline
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I forgot to mention on my earlier post. One of the nice things about the digital bike fit that I did was that the bike shop saved every piece of data and whenever I take them a new bike they set it up for me in less than a minute. Same thing if I buy a new seat or seatpost.
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  #27  
Old 05-02-2022, 10:18 PM
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Ti Designs Ti Designs is offline
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Originally Posted by mhespenheide View Post
I will only say that one of my regrets of being in MA for one year was not making the time and space to come down and get a fit from you. It was during COVID, but thought about it a number of times and then got headhunted back to the West Coast. I don't know that there's anything wrong with my current fit, but I'm curious what you might have pointed out as issues to work on.
The post Covid rush shows no signs of slowing down. That's the real reason for this post. I see places that advertise 4 hour fittings, I'm doing 4-5 fittings a day just to keep up with demand. As I look back at the success that I've had with riders, the idea doing my basic fitting and then scheduling time to ride has worked by far the best. I would love to do that with members of this forum...
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  #28  
Old 05-03-2022, 12:43 AM
54ny77 54ny77 is offline
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3 hours? hogwash.

should really take about an hour or so, maybe. and at least half that time is getting the parts put on, put off, exchanged, etc.

and yes a really good fit requires a ride, in the field, with a fitter who knows their stuff.

i've had a couple of pricey indoor-only fits with sharks and laser beams, and the difference vs. my own setup was miniscule. but i did it anyway just for kicks.

some years later got a new bike and went for a ride with a group of friends, including a pal who's bona fides are pretty much without peer. while spinning along, i asked how's the setup. he calmly replied, "put your seat down about 1cm when you get home. you're bouncing." funny thing is i never for a moment felt my hips rocking, but he's seeing me from different perspective and also while my eyes were popping out from just about going anaerobic. i was probably all over the saddle trying for every last gasp of ooopmh just to hang on.

and that was pretty much that. literally.
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  #29  
Old 05-03-2022, 02:35 PM
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jkbrwn jkbrwn is offline
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I once had a six hour bike fit and it was worth every single minute and penny that it cost.

http://www.thebikewhisperer.co.uk/se.../bike-fitting/
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  #30  
Old 05-03-2022, 05:15 PM
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Ti Designs Ti Designs is offline
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Originally Posted by jkbrwn View Post
I once had a six hour bike fit and it was worth every single minute and penny that it cost.

http://www.thebikewhisperer.co.uk/se.../bike-fitting/
That's because you worked with a fitter who learned form Steve Hogg. I've read just about everything Steve has written three or four times over. His students are not only looking at what's happening on the bike, but how that's caused by sensory feedback to the brain. They also pay far more attention to asymmetry in the body as the bike is always the worst case. When you're walking or running the foot has freedom of movement - it can go anywhere once it leaves the ground, so you're self adjusting. On the bike you're mounted to pedals which are mounted to cranks which share a bottom bracket - it forces your right and left side to do the same thing.

The only thing I have against the work done by Steve and his students is the attempt to make it a one & done process. The body adapts, and if the rider is aware, the body gives feedback. There is a general rule about making corrections if there is a measurable difference - make half the correction and observe the results. That's because making the full correction often has things go horribly wrong in the other direction. The body adapts over time, two weeks later the correction made isn't gonna have the same result. I get that Steve and his students do fittings that people have to travel to, so it needs to be that way, but it's not ideal.

I have 5 fittings lined up for tomorrow. I'm given 90 minutes to do a fitting, most of my clients were sent my way by other people I've worked with. I have three simple goals for a fitting: Put people within their range of motion in all directions (that's way more complicated than you probably think) and teach them how to get their body weight on the pedals. Beyond that it's dealing with asymmetries, which there are a lot of. I've gotten pretty good at understanding what I'm looking at with a single variable asymmetry (I can tell the difference between a femur length difference and a tibia length difference), but complex cases take more time. That's where I think measuring devices used by fitters need a little work. If I had power pedals in all the different cleat types that showed force vectors (including lateral), I would be able to tell the difference between a femur length discrepancy and FAI in a second...

The one thing I love about all of Steve's students is that they never say they'll put you in the perfect position or that they can solve any fitting problem. Honesty in marketing is so rare these days...
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