30 for 30: ‘LANCE’ trailer

[ntb1001]

Originally Posted by bronk

I agree with one thing LA felt strongly about -- the culpability playing field isn't level. Armstrong, Landis, Hamilton, Pantani and Ulrich all took a public whipping. Many others dopers including Hincapie seem to have been given a pass. Winning and very pubic denials appear to have opened the door to the penalty box.

Completely agree as well.

I like the examples of a complete pass and worship for some, but disdain for others that didn’t place nice with the feds. Seems like a bad double standard.

Really hard for me to watch Hincape, Hamilton, Landis...etc in these interviews.


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[FlashUNC]

Originally Posted by bronk

I agree with one thing LA felt strongly about -- the culpability playing field isn't level. Armstrong, Landis, Hamilton, Pantani and Ulrich all took a public whipping. Many others dopers including Hincapie seem to have been given a pass. Winning and very pubic denials appear to have opened the door to the penalty box.

As usual Lance is thinking about it in the wrong terms. When the investigators came knocking, those who cooperated with the investigation did the right thing, and that builds a lot of public good will. When you fight every inch of the way with outsized public denials -- including using cancer patients as a shield to the claims -- then give a half hearted "Eh, so what, everyone did it" apology when said testimony nails you to the wall, the contrition feels less genuine and people are less open to forgiveness.

Again, it comes back to owning the screw up in a real, genuine way, rather than constant CYA about it. I don't think anyone can watch Tyler's 60 minutes interview or read his book, as two examples, and not see real internal turmoil and conflict about what he's doing.

[Alaska Mike]

Originally Posted by ntb1001

I like the examples of a complete pass and worship for some, but disdain for others that didn’t place nice with the feds. Seems like a bad double standard.

Really hard for me to watch Hincape, Hamilton, Landis...etc in these interviews.

USADA offered Lance the same deal as everyone else. He turned it down.

When Tyler and Floyd were busted, they followed Lance's example (deny, deny, deny) and were professionally and personally destroyed. Lance lasted longer because he had a bigger firewall and war chest. He was no less guilty.

Floyd peddles pot, Tyler sells training plans to MAMILs. Lance is set for multiple lifetimes of complete luxury. Seems fair.

Defending Omerta is not a noble undertaking. Nor is attacking those who had a hand in its dismantling (whatever their reasons may have been). The very dirty, systematic, and institutionalized nature of doping in the "HiTest" era needed to be exposed fully for what it was. Festina and Puerto only uncovered a small part of the story. It wasn't until Floyd and Tyler opened up that it really began to take shape. That led to a flood of riders talking. Yeah, some of them got deals for their testimony, but that's part of the game.

Is cycling clean now? Not by a long shot. However, at least the doping is not as overt and institutionalized as it once was.

But yeah, Tyler and Floyd are the bad guys here. There is a double standard, but Lance came away ahead of everyone else.

[mcteague]

Originally Posted by Alaska Mike

Is cycling clean now? Not by a long shot. However, at least the doping is not as overt and institutionalized as it once was.

But yeah, Tyler and Floyd are the bad guys here. There is a double standard, but Lance came away ahead of everyone else.

What really makes it impossible for me to forgive Floyd was when his manager tried to intimidate Greg into keeping quiet. Greg confessed to Floyd about his childhood sexual abuse by an Uncle and that keeping secrets can eat you up. Landis' mgr called Greg pretending to be that Uncle! What pieces of garbage.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-...e18-story.html

https://www.velonews.com/news/lemond...andis-hearing/

Tim

[mdeth1313]

Originally Posted by Alaska Mike

Is cycling clean now? Not by a long shot. However, at least the doping is not as overt and institutionalized as it once was.

Just as bad now as it was then. Just figured out how to hide it. Tell me Sky didn't look like USPS. Marginal gains my ass. I stopped watching a long time ago.

I've got much bigger things to worry about than passing judgement on these guys.

[Black Dog]

Originally Posted by mcteague

What really makes it impossible for me to forgive Floyd was when his manager tried to intimidate Greg into keeping quiet. Greg confessed to Floyd about his childhood sexual abuse by an Uncle and that keeping secrets can eat you up. Landis' mgr called Greg pretending to be that Uncle! What pieces of garbage.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-...e18-story.html

https://www.velonews.com/news/lemond...andis-hearing/

Tim

Maybe it's Floyd's manager that you should not forgive.

[mcteague]

Originally Posted by Black Dog

Maybe it's Floyd's manager that you should not forgive.

You really think Floyd did not know? He hired the guy and told him Greg's personal story. Somewhere there was another article where Floyd was at some dinner and threatening to make Lemond's tale public.

Tim

[Hawker]

Originally Posted by mcteague

You really think Floyd did not know? He hired the guy and told him Greg's personal story. Somewhere there was another article where Floyd was at some dinner and threatening to make Lemond's tale public.

Tim

I'm presuming that Greg never pressed charges against Floyd or his manager for this specific event? So I guess we'll never know who was really behind it...but it is for certain lower than low...really sickening.

[woodworker]

I watched and enjoyed it.

Over the years, I've read many of the books and articles in real time, so much of this (almost all) was not new. I pretty much made up my mind on him a while back, not so much for doping but for being a complete a-hole to everyone in his way. The bookends of seeing him as a young, talented triathlete, being a jerk to others, and then seeing him now, a guy who still doesn't get it, just confirms my point of view. He still wanted to point out the injustice of it all, triggered by discussing his visit to Jan Ullrich. But he behaved differently than the other guys in the peloton. He made more money, and he abused more people, and he was constantly in attack mode, with nothing off limits. That's why he's treated differently. Not because he was caught but because he was a jerk, so many times and to so many people.

...one time, and people forgive; twice or three times, perhaps. But constantly, no.

The funny part of watching this was my wife's reaction. She just gasped when he said that he'd let his son dope if it was pro football but not college--just not worth it apparently. At that point and others, my wife's jaw just dropped. I'm jaded, I guess by all of this. She was just appalled. …and she's right.

[Hawker]

Originally Posted by woodworker

I watched and enjoyed it.

Over the years, I've read many of the books and articles in real time, so much of this (almost all) was not new. I pretty much made up my mind on him a while back, not so much for doping but for being a complete a-hole to everyone in his way. The bookends of seeing him as a young, talented triathlete, being a jerk to others, and then seeing him now, a guy who still doesn't get it, just confirms my point of view. He still wanted to point out the injustice of it all, triggered by discussing his visit to Jan Ullrich. But he behaved differently than the other guys in the peloton. He made more money, and he abused more people, and he was constantly in attack mode, with nothing off limits. That's why he's treated differently. Not because he was caught but because he was a jerk, so many times and to so many people.

...one time, and people forgive; twice or three times, perhaps. But constantly, no.

The funny part of watching this was my wife's reaction. She just gasped when he said that he'd let his son dope if it was pro football but not college--just not worth it apparently. At that point and others, my wife's jaw just dropped. I'm jaded, I guess by all of this. She was just appalled. …and she's right.

I wasn't sure what to think when he pointed out how unfair it is that people have forgiven Hincapie and "even buy his s---t", but they treat him differently. Wow really? Maybe it's because George never persecuted or threatened innocent people with lawsuits.

[woodworker]

Originally Posted by Hawker

I wasn't sure what to think when he pointed out how unfair it is that people have forgiven Hincapie and "even buy his s---t", but they treat him differently. Wow really? Maybe it's because George never persecuted or threatened innocent people with lawsuits.

I know. He acknowledges that he did these things and that they were wrong, but he fails to see that this conduct has anything to do with the way that people view him.

...and then he throws his buddy under the bus at the same time. Somewhere along the line a moral line got snapped.

[GregL]

Originally Posted by woodworker

Somewhere along the line a moral line got snapped.

Or that line never was formed in the first place. Lance would make a fascinating panel discussion at a psychology symposium. Nature, nurture, or somewhere in between...

Greg