Is there a way to estimate power / watts ? Dont think I *need* a PM but curious

[benb]

Originally Posted by martl

1000W isn't "nothing", it depends, as you write youself, on how much muscle you have (=how big you are).
World class road sprinters aren't monsters because they can put out 2000W. They are monsters because they can put out 2000W *while still being skinny enough to climb with the elite* - Erik Zabel, foe example weighed 145lbs...

I'd bet nearly every single Pro can put out 1000W in a sprint though, that was the measuring stick I was using.

The "climbers" who aren't good sprinters would still appear to be very good against your typical competitive riders.

Just cause it might not be routine in amateurs doesn't mean it's not routine or even poor in the elites.

Not hard to go find videos or files from even skinny climber build pros where they're running 700-800 watts for a couple minutes, most likely anyone who can do that can easily find another 200-300w in a 5 second burst.

[mtechnica]

Originally Posted by tomato coupe

600 watts?

I mean I’m only pushing with one leg at a time

[carpediemracing]

For the OP's original question, Strava is great at estimating steady state power when wind is not a factor - so a slower/steep, longer hill.

Strava is horrible at guessing peak power as well as flat land power, especially when riding with others. I've done races where I've avg 170w and Strava says (because it calculates as if I'm time trialing) something like 350w.

Side by side sprints don't give good data either. Size/aero is huge in a sprint. The big riders put down a lot of power but present more profile to the wind. The little guys may not be as god-like but they're smaller so they can go fast on lower power. The 1500w peak numbers thrown around are realistic even for a Cat 3, but 2000w is unusual to see in a road rider. Track riders will peak at well over 2000w (a not-really-top-tier US National team sprinter said his peak is 2400w, and his avg for a minute is about 1000w - he did win a regional kilo event without training for it, but internationally you'd never heard of him). However, as pointed out before, holding 1000w for 10-15s is usually enough to win some decent sprints.

The article below is illuminating. It disintegrates the mythical peak power numbers, it shows how important positioning is, and it shows just how short a typical sprint is in the Tour. It does not show how hard it is to get to the sprint on a Tour stage - that part is missing.

https://sportsscientists.com/2014/07...-sprint-stage/

Basically if you take just the sprint element of a Tour stage, a decent Cat 3 sprinter could give the pros a run for their money.

Note the huge range of power. It's virtually impossible to estimate power based on another rider.

For me, a couple very illuminating examples. I did a sprint on a group ride and another rider asked if I hit "1800w" because he hit 1200w and I rocketed away from him. When we checked my data I'd hit 1200w also. But I'm shorter and more aero (esp when sprinting). Even though I was substantially heavier than him (30-40 lbs?) I could still out sprint him.

In another example, at the end of a race, I won the field sprint. It was an average sprint for me, 1200w peak (normal), 900w for 14s (a bit low so top speed was low), but I won the sprint by a huge margin. It took the 2nd rider in the sprint about 30s to catch me after the line, and I was just soft pedaling and trying to catch my breath (I was sorely out of shape). When we stopped he started pushing buttons on my SRM, wanting to see my peak power. He was saying I had to have hit 1600-1800w based on my sprint (his PM told him he hit 1400-1500w). He was very disappointed to learn that I'd peaked at just 1200w. We're not even very different in size, and he's substantially lighter and skinnier than me, and he's an ex-Cat 1 so a far superior rider to me.

The best way, as stated before, is to borrow a PM of some sort. A PowerTap wheel is the easiest - you can just put the computer in your pocket, rip out a couple sprints, and call it a day.

If you're doing out of saddle efforts then just borrow the entire bike and do a couple sprints near whatever parking lot you're in. You'd be surprised at how close to your max power you get when doing "normal hard accelerations" from a light or whatever.

[echappist]

Originally Posted by benb

I'd bet nearly every single Pro can put out 1000W in a sprint though, that was the measuring stick I was using.

The "climbers" who aren't good sprinters would still appear to be very good against your typical competitive riders.

Just cause it might not be routine in amateurs doesn't mean it's not routine or even poor in the elites.

Not hard to go find videos or files from even skinny climber build pros where they're running 700-800 watts for a couple minutes, most likely anyone who can do that can easily find another 200-300w in a 5 second burst.

What’s really special about pros are the context of those 1 kW sprints.

For flat sprints, the 4-5 min leading up to the final sprint is generally done with avg power at VO2max range. A lot of riders can do 1 kW avg for 10 seconds; not many can do it after doing 108% FTP for 4 minutes.

They also get close to that after being in a break, even if there’s a pack bearing down. Even at my strongest, i’d be lucky to do 800 W for 10 seconds after having been in a break

[benb]

Originally Posted by carpediemracing

If you're doing out of saddle efforts then just borrow the entire bike and do a couple sprints near whatever parking lot you're in. You'd be surprised at how close to your max power you get when doing "normal hard accelerations" from a light or whatever.

Totally... very easy to go out on a "easy" ride and it comes back and says Max power 500+ W.

I've been hurt since the beginning of June.. still getting back into things and I have yet to do a sprint or a threshold interval and have been taking it pretty easy.

I still have a bunch of 5 second efforts between 600-800w. They're meaningless, most likely just starting from a stop getting across a light with angry cars around.

[benb]

Originally Posted by echappist

What’s really special about pros are the context of those 1 kW sprints.

For flat sprints, the 4-5 min leading up to the final sprint is generally done with avg power at VO2max range. A lot of riders can do 1 kW avg for 10 seconds; not many can do it after doing 108% FTP for 4 minutes.

They also get close to that after being in a break, even if there’s a pack bearing down. Even at my strongest, i’d be lucky to do 800 W for 10 seconds after having been in a break

All correct but don't forget they do that at the end of 6+ hours of riding too!

The pictures of Cavendish doing 40mph in a sprint not looking where he is going are always precious too!

If you're not getting 6-figures for a result don't do that!

[cgates66]

Another thing to consider in all this is what makes you happy when you ride, and what your body is good at. Chasing numbers is fun on the Internet, but as others have pointed out, so what - a 1,500W guy can be beaten (badly it seems) by a 1,200W guy. If you like sprinting, and tend to beat your buddies (or other racers) - there you go. But maybe you just aren't built for it - I would imagine that there are plenty of TT monsters that couldn't win a sprint to save their lives, and don't care because that's not their game.

Personally, I think chasing power makes a lot of sense for road racing / V02 training / TT / even general cardio etc. where sustained power really matters and is the focus. I'm massively impressed by guys that can do 4 and 5 W/Kg for an hour, and a PM really helps with this type of training.

For sprinting, I think a PM is useful but probably less so because of the type of training that's required to build competitive speed. It's turnover and the squat rack, deadlift etc. - the latter in particular being somewhat antithetical to the other stuff for sprint-specific work because ultimately, you need fast-twitch power which comes from mass and a higher proportion of fast-twitch fibers - neither of which help much on a big climb or long, sustained effort.

[cgolvin]

Originally Posted by tomato coupe

Wow, 98% humidity? That sucks.

540 feet of elevation in 32 miles? That really sucks.

[jkbrwn]

Originally Posted by cgolvin

540 feet of elevation in 32 miles? That really sucks.

A guy I used to ride with when I lived in NYC has gone to stay with his parents down in FL during COVID. He regularly rides 100 miles with 650ft of elev Unbearable!

[benb]

Originally Posted by jkbrwn

A guy I used to ride with when I lived in NYC has gone to stay with his parents down in FL during COVID. He regularly rides 100 miles with 650ft of elev Unbearable!

I've got relatives in Florida who have never really biked anywhere else and they don't even get it at all and Florida riding is fun for them.

If it's all you know it's not bothersome.

It is an effort not to chuckle when they want to talk about average speeds or how hard it is though.

I've rode on Cape Cod plenty where it's not as flat as Florida and the thing there is the wind.. wind can be hard and yet is not rewarding or invigorating for me. And your bike fit better be really good if you're riding straight and flat in the wind for a really long time. That part can make riding in Florida hard too.. so monotonous and you can be fighting the wind for an extremely long time riding perfectly straight and flat the whole way.

I rented a bike for a week in FL one time and still had fun though but it'd be rough to have been riding that same area for a month.

[pooneej]

Originally Posted by cgolvin

540 feet of elevation in 32 miles? That really sucks.

Yeah not much for hills around here - elevation profile below. LOL you guys that have real climbs wouldn't even think it'd be a challenge lol.

[pooneej]

Originally Posted by benb

900-1000w in a Sprint is *nothing* though.

ISTR top Sprinters are in the 1500-2000w range aren't they? Guys who train for that are monsters.

I know - I watched some YT videos a while ago about TdF riders and it said they generate 1600+watts. I was pretty amazed and it was a while ago. So when my cycling buddy hit over a kilowatt I got curious where I would be.

I'm a 50year old dude. Casual rider/runner. Now if I was 20something again I'd probably spend the money on a PM because I was that way back then with training (college track but kicked around on road bike after college for biathlon).

Oh yeah - LONG ago a few of us drove to Manayunk PA (45mins away from me) to do the manayunk wall. Back then if PMs existed I would definitely have spent money on one just for that climb.

[martl]

Originally Posted by benb

I'd bet nearly every single Pro can put out 1000W in a sprint though, that was the measuring stick I was using.

Absolutely because *i* could do it (60kg guy) in my better days which were nothing to write home about.

[carpediemracing]

Originally Posted by benb

Totally... very easy to go out on a "easy" ride and it comes back and says Max power 500+ W.

I've been hurt since the beginning of June.. still getting back into things and I have yet to do a sprint or a threshold interval and have been taking it pretty easy.

I still have a bunch of 5 second efforts between 600-800w. They're meaningless, most likely just starting from a stop getting across a light with angry cars around.

Those are still real numbers though.

One of my first rides after a double fractured pelvis (wheelchair for while, then a cane for a couple months, etc, so I was very unfit and quite weak) I was riding along and got to a narrow construction zone. So as not to hold up cars I did a little dig to get through as quick as possible. When I checked the power after the ride I saw that I'd done 1100w for something like 8s.

When I first got a powermeter I went for an easy ride basically to gather data. I saw that I did 1200w about a minute into the ride - it was the red light about 100 yards from my then driveway, and I hit the peak number accelerating away from the light. I had no idea I was putting that kind of effort into just "clearing the datum" (aka getting out of the intersection).

All that goes to show that although doing an all out sprint does take a bike that is reasonably close in fit, doing a parking lot acceleration probably doesn't, and you'll probably get a decent idea of where you stand power wise.

[Toddykins]

I have found that reacting to chasing dogs is super helpful for seeing where your real 5 second max power is...