is it fair to consider Eddy Merckx, who was caught doping three times in his career

[benb]

Originally Posted by fiamme red

Merckx and Hinault were competent sprinters, but that's not how they won the vast majority of their races. They weren't on the level of Maertens or Kelly. Likewise, there were other riders who were better pure climbers, e.g., Fuente and Van Impe.

No disagreement it's just there is a much larger perception that they were way more well rounded than today's champions are.

To me this discussion isn't really about TT vs climbing vs sprinting etc..

It's more about success in both grand tours & one day classics.

[fiamme red]

Originally Posted by bthornt

Also, consider some of the talent he competed against - Gimondi, Poulidor, Maertens, DeVlaeminck, Goodefroot, Fuentes, certainly more than I can list.

Don't forget Ocaña, who was probably Merckx's most dangerous rival in the Tour.

[bikinchris]

Originally Posted by carpediemracing

Back then doping was generally a 10 day suspension, and when a racer tested positive they'd usually say something like "When I come back I'm going to win to prove I'm innocent" which didn't make sense to me. Wouldn't winning just prove you doped?

Sean Kelly was one such rider. His positive was even in his book. I don't remember if guys like Vanderarden tested positive but I'm pretty sure he did. Many did. Even a guy that beat Lemond in Tour de L'Avenir tested positive - in his case I think he got docked 10 minutes, handing Lemond the win.

The thing with amphetamines or cortisone or testosterone is that although they allowed you to basically use more of your body, they didn't increase what your body could do. Meaning you'd recover faster or feel less pain or whatever, but your heart and blood were still the same - you weren't changing how much oxygen you could get to your muscles.

With EPO, blood doping, it actually changed the limits of the rider. It wasn't that EPO/boosting allowed you to use more of your body - it made your body better. This is doping at a different level. It's why suddenly speeds went up, why suddenly everyone was good.

Everyone Lemond beat was caught doping. Everyone. His claim that (pre admitting) Lance had to be doping because everyone Lance beat was doping so Lance had to be doping. What does that say about Lemond.

As for the general doping. Recovery wins stage races. It doesn't do much good to be great one day, then down the next for the GC battle. Steroids can help you maintain performance levels. I'm sure testosterone still is being used today along with low levels of blood doping.

Marshall W. Major Taylor was world champion only once. He was practically unbeatable. Riders would team up against him and he would still beat them. But he was very religious and refused to race on Sunday. So, after he won his first World Chamionships, they just moved the finals to Sunday, knowing he would refuse to race. Even though he was much faster in later years through teaching himself better cross training techniques and developing even better handling and speed, he never got a chance to win again.
Marshall Taylor was the best, most dominant racer of his day., bar none and may be the best athlete and person to ever race.

[saab2000]

Originally Posted by Greatestalltime

Anyone in todays game that can?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Several likely could. They choose not to. Cycling is very different today and much more specialized.

[cgates66]

Merckx competed on a level playing field, and was by any definition among the best cyclists of all time and without caveat the greatest. "Greatness" and the "best" are two different things of course.

As with Conan, his victories could not easily be counted! And he even heard the lamentations of their women, one of whom granted him his famous sobriquet "the Cannibal". Obviously Merckx was the greatest.

As far as the "best", that's harder to know, and we're into definitions etc., but Merckx is a leadout at a minimum in the conversation. Who would you fancy to beat him, and under what conditions? Those are questions you don't even bother asking about many other greats because Merckx won in all conditions - track, grand tour, those insane motorcycle pacing things, single day - if it was a cycling event, he won it. Very few can say that, and none competing today, although as others have pointed out, the game has changed.

With respect to doping, popping a few uppers or taking a strychnine and whiskey (flip-flop wheel era and before)...those things don't alter your physiology. How many of us drink coffee? That's both physiologically and psychologically active!

More importantly, don't judge a man out of his time! Merckx might also have used a plastic straw, filled his car with gasoline that had tetraethyl lead in it, or used a familiar form of address with an airline stewardess, who knows what modern moral failings we might discover in those figures of the distant past?

Whatever his flaws, when on a bicycle, none were or are likely to be greater.

[wallymann]

Originally Posted by Greatestalltime

Tell me why he’s the greatest, please.

525 comes to mind.

[paredown]

Originally Posted by vespasianus

What is crazy is you could make an argument for 1971, 1973, 1974 or 1969. He was just so dominant.

I don't think you will ever see a rider that can do what he did. Win something like Liège–Bastogne–Liège, Worlds, the TDF, the Grio in a single year and throw in another random 10-15 things! Just nuts. Can't believe we are even having this conversation.

Plus track racing in the winter.

[bikinchris]

Since testosterone is used for recovery, it's interesting to note it's been available since 1935.

[John H.]

Name 3 just as worthy top level cyclists that you are SURE were clean.
You pretty much can't-

Originally Posted by GOTHBROOKS

the best road cyclist of all time?
when many other top performers have been shunned?

[m_sasso]

The guy was dam good at riding a bike, good enough for me.

[Charles M]

ONLY IF YOU ALSO CONSIDER LANCE THE GREATEST TDF RIDER IN HISTORY AS WELL...

They both did EXACTLY the same thing relative to their compatriots AND were both as ruthless.

[Hellgate]

Originally Posted by paredown

Plus track racing in the winter.

And the occasional cyclocross race.

[colker]

Originally Posted by Charles M

ONLY IF YOU ALSO CONSIDER LANCE THE GREATEST TDF RIDER IN HISTORY AS WELL...

They both did EXACTLY the same thing relative to their compatriots AND were both as ruthless.

No.

[BdaGhisallo]

Originally Posted by cgates66

And he even heard the lamentations of their women, one of whom granted him his famous sobriquet "the Cannibal". Obviously Merckx was the greatest.

Merckx was actually christened as The Cannibal by the daughter of one of his colleagues, Christian Raymond. Raymond was telling his young daughter about Merckx's appetite to win and how he devoured the competition and his daughter commented that he sounded like a cannibal. It stuck.

https://www.procyclingstats.com/rider/christian-raymond

[mcteague]

Originally Posted by Charles M

ONLY IF YOU ALSO CONSIDER LANCE THE GREATEST TDF RIDER IN HISTORY AS WELL...

They both did EXACTLY the same thing relative to their compatriots AND were both as ruthless.

You have got to be kidding! The choice of font is an indication yours is a minority opinion.

Tim