Future of Rim Brakes

[Team Murray]

Maintenence, Travel, Stems, Mechanical shifting:

C64 disc internal hydraulic hose routing:

• Pro's:
  Looks goods;
  More aero

• Con's:
  Must use stems: Colnago (-6d, can cost as much as $350 new!) or Deda Vinci (-17d, $160) stem or Deda Alanera (-6d, $680) combo;
  More challenging to pack for travel due to limited hose slack;
  When unpacking/reassembly, it will probably need some disc brake maintenace (bleed or alignment)
  If using mechanical shifting, the shift cables are not fully internally routed. Since internal routing routes the cable along the front of the steerer tube and the angle is 84d, it too sharp to route shift cables. Shift cables enter the downtube at the top

C64 disc externally routed hose:

• Pro's:
  Easier to pack than internal routing;
  Can use any stem with any pitch. This is why pro's chose external routing

• Con's:
  When unpacking/reassembly, it will probably need some disc brake maintenace (bleed or alignment)
  If using mechanical shifting, the shift cables are not fully internally routed. Since internal routing routes the cable along the front of the steerer tube and the angle is 84d, it too sharp to route shift cables. Shift cables enter the downtube at the inside top

C64 Rim brake

• Pro's:
  Easiest to travel with
  Adjustments can be made with simple tools by all/most people

• Con's:
  If you run carbon wheels, it will never brake as good as Aluminum wheels or disc brakes
  If using mechanical shifting, the shift cables are not fully internally routed.
  Shift cables enter the downtube at the inside top

[elladaddy]

@TeamMurray this info is so valuable.

[Team Murray]

Originally Posted by tepextate

Not to derail this conversation, but what are the benefits of a lugged carbon frame over "monocoque"? Or is it mostly a historical construction format that's not really used anymore?

I believe that you are right. It is an artifact of the early carbon fiber archietectures. Tube and lug designs are highy customizable and probably the strongest CF architecture. But may also be the heaviest

• Al lugs with CF tubes
  Peugeot
  Vitus
  Eclipse (eventually bought by Trek),
  Look,
  Time.

• Carbon lugs with carbon tubes (round tubes and eventually shaped tubes)
  Calfee (flying buttresses and overwrapping)
  Colnago
  Serotta
  Look
  Time
  Lemond (by Time)
  Holland (I believe Mike Lopez helped him with a Meivici like design)
  Parlee (I believe that these are not technically lugs. THe tubes are mitered together and the "lugs" are overwrapped)

• Titanium lugs with carbon tubes
  Seven
  Serotta
  IF
  Festka

[sevencyclist]

Thank you Team Murray! The outline definitely helped me to visualize how the bike will look with the two systems. The stem choice and angle are definitely something I had not considered.

Sounds like the braking power might be less consistent with carbon rims, but is adequate with aluminum rims for my purpose of Page Mill or Kings Mountain to the coast.

[9tubes]

Yes, the mitered/wrapped technique is an excellent method of producing a custom-fit carbon frame. Parlee, Crumpton, Hampsten and Sarto use this method.

[tepextate]

Thanks, Team Murray. Super interesting information!

[barnabyjones]

This is a pure hypothetical for me as I don't ever plan on buying an electronic group, but if you're going electronic go disc. Why not go as clean as possible with regards to exposed cables. Get AXS or the likely upcoming wireless DA. Another reason Id consider disc is that it would open up the possibility to ride aluminum rims that are totally black and stay black forever. I'd rock two wheelsets, deep carbon for racing or coast rides and more shallow aluminum rims for climbing and city riding. I've damaged two sets of carbon rims and I'm the type of guy who sees a chip and declares "not rideable!"

So essentially the disc choice would be purely aesthetic.

[pdmtong]

Originally Posted by tepextate

Not to derail this conversation, but what are the benefits of a lugged carbon frame over "monocoque"? Or is it mostly a historical construction format that's not really used anymore?

[in the beginning] lugged carbon was the natural evolution of applying steel frame building approaches to carbon.

I believe the C64 is the most extreme incarnation of this approach today - extreme in the sense of the shaping of the tubes and hence the shaping of the lugs the tubes go into.

Parlee is NOT lugged - the tubes are mitered and then the joints are wrapped in a way that the finish wrap looks like a lug.

[pdmtong]

Originally Posted by barnabyjones

This is a pure hypothetical for me as I don't ever plan on buying an electronic group, but if you're going electronic go disc. Why not go as clean as possible with regards to exposed cables. Get AXS or the likely upcoming wireless DA. Another reason Id consider disc is that it would open up the possibility to ride aluminum rims that are totally black and stay black forever. I'd rock two wheelsets, deep carbon for racing or coast rides and more shallow aluminum rims for climbing and city riding. I've damaged two sets of carbon rims and I'm the type of guy who sees a chip and declares "not rideable!"
So essentially the disc choice would be purely aesthetic.

Here’s a fine example from a good friend as to just how clean a C64 can look
C64 with SR12 EPS and Bora One 50 tubulars

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by old_fat_and_slow

I thought conventional "rim brake" rims were going the way of the dodo. I thought most of the pre-built fancy pants wheels were all going to disc brake models too. If that is the case ... I would think twice about buying a new bike dependent upon a dying brake system that may have limited choices in the future for wheels.

(No I'm not a disc brake advocate. Don't have any in my stable. Just sayin'.)

Many, many rim brake rims still available now. Many rim brake wheelsets also.

Velocity, H+Son, DT, BTLOS, etc
Fulcrum, Campagnolo, mavic, BTLOS, etc

Not long ago I added a disc brake road bike to the fleet and am less than enthused with it. I haven't learned to adjust disc brakes and the seem to often go out of adjustment. My rim brake bike is simple, adjustable, brakes nicely, and plain easy. Lighter too. Unless larger tires (>28mm) are required, I think I'm staying with rim brakes.

But, but, but..wet disc brakes on any bike for any condition is 'far superior' to any caliper brake..isn't it?

-Says the DBEs....Disc Brake Evangelicals....

(Rim brakes cheaper too)

[elladaddy]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

Many, many rim brake rims still available now. Many rim brake wheelsets also.

Velocity, H+Son, DT, BTLOS, etc
Fulcrum, Campagnolo, mavic, BTLOS, etc

(Rim brakes cheaper too)

I don't see any rim brake Tarmacs. The Giant Advanced SL appears to be disc only, as does the Scott Addict RC and the Orbea Orca. Cannondale SuperSix Evo Hi-Mod is disc only. Argon 18 Gallium is disc only.

For 2021, Trek Emonda is disc only.

All OPENs are disc only. Argonaut and Allied are disc only.

Roval's lightest model is disc only, as is DT-Swiss'.

You may not be interested in any of these bikes or wheels and that's fine. But for better or worse, there are fewer and fewer rim brake options.

[pasadena]

I think the Giant SL rim is only avail as a frameset in the US (nice colorway too!)
Still globally as a full bike
https://www.giant-bicycles.com/globa...cr-advanced-sl

But the Giant Advanced Pro is still avail as a rim full bike.

I think Giant is one of the remaining big brands that offers rim brake choices.

Building up a new road bike, i chose to stay rim brake. Disc didn't make any sense for me. But I believe there will be enough market support for rim for quite some time.

Originally Posted by elladaddy

I don't see any rim brake Tarmacs. The Giant Advanced SL appears to be disc only, as does the Scott Addict RC and the Orbea Orca. Cannondale SuperSix Evo Hi-Mod is disc only. Argon 18 Gallium is disc only.

For 2021, Trek Emonda is disc only.

All OPENs are disc only. Argonaut and Allied are disc only.

Roval's lightest model is disc only, as is DT-Swiss'.

You may not be interested in any of these bikes or wheels and that's fine. But for better or worse, there are fewer and fewer rim brake options.

[El Chaba]

Please refer to the “Disconcerting Disc Brake Noise” thread currently active on this forum for additional data that you might find useful in the decision making process....

[nmrt]

i have been happy cutomer of road rim brakes for a long time. And i have been a happy customer for road disc brakes for two years now. no issues whatsoever with disc brakes. they work better for me for where I live (mountainous colorado). i would advise not to look at anecdotes to choose disc over rim brakes. buy the one that makes sense to you.

but yes, rim brakes are dead as far as many, many big bike mfg's are concerned. one cannot get a complete rim brake bike from many big mfg's in 2021 anymore. yes, there are some rim brakes road bike still available. but if you look at the trend, rim brakes are going the way of the dodo. and i for one am kinda mad about it.

[Gibran]

I went with the direct mount eeBrakes on my 64. I figured I’m not going to ride it in the rain anyway so why not make it simple and light. Runs and brakes great with carbon clinchers and carbon tubulars. Looks like you live in the Bay Area too so same scenario as me - if it’s raining, just wait a day and it’ll be dry again.