SBT GRVL Runs Afoul of Local Ranchers & Residents in Colorado

[earlfoss]

God forbid a bunch of cyclists restrict their 250 super duty's freedoms for one day out of the year.

[tommyrod74]

Originally Posted by bigbill

This has turned into a collection of anecdotes and generalisms about rural folk as if all people who choose to live away from the city are the same. Every event is cool until it gets too big. From grassroots to a lottery for an entry. Too many cars for road racing, mountain biking went from flowy trails to rock gardens, and now gravel is attracting the wrong attention.

I think that all of us making those points have made it clear that it's a vocal minority of rural people who meet that description, not all, nor even a majority.

It's pretty illogical to imply that the anecdotes and personal experiences aren't real or valid because one can't generalize those attitudes and behaviors to all people who choose a rural lifestyle.

People resent anything slowing them down or altering their routine in any way, forgetting that we all use public roads and that we all own them collectively. This isn't confined to rural areas. But rural areas are the logical choice for running and cycling events due to the lower population density, attractive landscapes, terrain, and lower traffic. Just like cities are the logical choice for restaurants, theaters, shopping, and offices.

Respect for public and private property is the key to keeping these events viable - but, as we've seen, even the best-run events with a full cleanup afterwards are at risk of being run off by NIMBYism.

[contronatura]

Originally Posted by raygunner

I’m sure if local residents wanted to be a thorn in the side of “big gravel” they should discuss what “big gravel” hates the most…paved roads!

All the ranchers here in Florida just immediately cash out their land and turn it into a ****ty subdivision. Colorado may have better growth controls but every time I go to ride gravel in north/central Florida a limestone road is being paved, a new subdivision is going up, and in one case an entire new 4 lane road was being built (no shoulder, par for the course).

[tommyrod74]

Originally Posted by AngryScientist

The more I read about big events like this that invariably attract the type A personalities, the less and less interested I am in participating. Riding alone or with small groups of like minded friends is so much better for me.

I think a lot of these "gravel" type of events have been allowed to get too big. Too many cyclists riding on what are intended to be rural farm roads is going to cause disruption and resentment, even if everyone acts perfectly, and we know the more people you accumulate, the more jerks will be present.

Every discipline of cycling has gone through this. Cyclocross went through it here a few seasons back. MTB, years (decades) ago. Cyclists discover or invent a "new" version of cycling, it gets more popular, events get larger (and eventually have prizes and awards), and people get surprised that racers take notice of their races and start racing them.

Just because "type A" personalities show up doesn't mean that you have to race them if you don't want to. You can always go and ride your ride. And if we aren't allowed to generalize about rural people (and I agree we shouldn't), we also shouldn't assume that competitive riders are the "jerks" in any group. There's no demonstrable correlation between racer types and propensity to litter, poop in someone's yard, etc.

I agree that field limits are just a smart call for these events.

[Alistair]

Originally Posted by jamesdak

Having grown up in rural VA I can totally understand and even embrace this. I guess I'm one of those misanthropes too by some of ya'll's judgmental posts here.

Is there a problem with respecting someone's privacy and their property?

Oh and for reference. I still have the scar on my shoulder from a hunter trespassing on our farm. Dumb ass heard me and shot in my direction without even identifying what he was shooting at.

There's a massive difference between shooting up somebody's property and simply transiting across the property. And yes, it's inexcusable for a cyclist to **** in somebody's yard.

FWIW, the fact that simple trespass (once signage is in place) is a criminal offense in most of the US is completely ****ing bonkers to me.

I'd much prefer something like Scotland's "Right to Roam" - the Scots codified the right to access private land for basic recreation back in 2003 (it was historically granted, but not codified prior to that).

Locally, we see an increasing number of nouveau rich a-holes buying farms in the DC exurbs and then gating off the farm lanes that many of have used for decades. Yes, it's legally within their right. But it's still self-entitled and ridiculous. Like RJ said, most of the cyclists using those lanes just want to get from A to B without riding down a highway. We're not pooping in yards or setting up camp or anything damaging.

[glepore]

Originally Posted by contronatura

I find it hard to empathize with whiny ranchers when this is a norm for living in a city where events happen and likewise as a complaint where there's cattle and horses at pasture. The amount of shoes I've had ruined on hikes and time I've had to spend cleaning horse **** off my tires is absurd.

Again, you miss the point. In a city, you move a car a block over and you can go about your business. In a rural setting, you're locked in. And with an event such as SBT there's not a "peloton" per se, so its a very long closure.

[contronatura]

Originally Posted by glepore

Again, you miss the point. In a city, you move a car a block over and you can go about your business. In a rural setting, you're locked in. And with an event such as SBT there's not a "peloton" per se, so its a very long closure.

Again a disruption that lasts a few hours is minor at the end of the day and can be ameliorated by course management and traffic guidance at key intersections. You aren't going to be locked in for 8 hours. I think 3 hours, with plenty of gaps between for F250's to navigate, one day a year isn't much to ask, assuming it's not on a holy day like the County Fare-- which I'm sure doesn't have parking minimums satisfied, access management for all driveways impacted, or people relieving themselves outside of.

[.RJ]

Originally Posted by jamesdak

Yep, The Ragnar Relay is a good example where I now like. They run right alongside my property as they pass through our mountain valley. A lot of the route they run is also part of my daily ride route. Yes they do bring money into the area for a day. But they leave trash all over the place, I mean really bad. They make a ton of noise supporting the runners which is what it is. But the worse part is how stupid and dangerous so many of the drivers are in the support vehicles.

If they cant treat the area they're visiting with respect they dont deserve to come back, plain and simple.

[redir]

Originally Posted by Alistair

This. But, for whatever reasons, rural America seems chock full of misanthropes.

Bike-packing in rural VA, every other house seems to have signage to the effect of “NO TRESSPASSING WE HAVE GUNS AND KNOW HOW TO USE THEM!” And the alternate houses have purple flashes on all the trees.

I have a coworker with acreage out in the boonies. He once got in a huff because somebody XC skied across the edge of his property. I couldn’t understand why he was upset. It’s just trees out there (no farming operation to disrupt, not near his home/garden, etc). He only knew they were there because the skied after work and had headlamps on - had they gone through mid-day, he likely would never have known.

Even though we claim to be civilized when it comes down to it we are animals. Mammals to be precise, Homo Sapiens. Animals tend to create territories for various reasons and piss out a border line and if another animal comes into it then it's a violation. We don't fight and claim for territory in the US anymore, we purchase it, and we don't piss out a boundary we put fences up. But it's really the same thing.

Someone mentioned Scotland, in Maine once it snows you can ski or snowmobile where ever you want. I like that law and it seems that people up there do too. So culture has a lot to do with it too.

[mstateglfr]

Originally Posted by jamesdak

But it seems like each summer we have some kind of "event" every week where you have to figure out if it's even worth it to try to leave you house and do anything. Should anyone really have to feel like a prisoner in their own house? And yes, I am a hypocrite as I do try and do at least one ride event myself each year.

A prisoner in your own home? Come on now. Conversation about frustrating policies, procedures, and activities can be fruitful and interesting up until the point when over the top claims(on either side) are made.
To be clear, the claim that someone feels like a prisoner in their own home is an over the top claim.

Mass social events can inconvenience people, that is absolutely true. Public roads are for public use and public gain though, and granting use for events like runs, marathons, triatholons/IMs, etc are continually viewed by those in government that grant permission because they are beneficial to the public- both local public and out of town public.

I fully agree with your comments on trash and have stated as much thru the thread. I think everyone agrees that is a concern and needs to be addressed and resolved(specific to SBT GRVL and really any other event). So since everyone is in agreement on this, it really isnt worth continuing to bring up.
What is disagreed on is whether public roads should ever be closed for events.

My metro holds marathons and an IM each year and roads are closed all over the place. The marathons are in town so yes people can park a block over, but the IM shuts down some major in town roads as well as some rural roads. The people on the rural roads can drive before the cycling segment reaches them and then after it is over. Simple as that- they need to plan around the road closure. Its just a road closure for part of a day. They are not a prisoner in their home and in fact they can be out running errands, visiting the zoo, swimming in a lake, hiking in the woods, or any number of other things during the time the road outside their house is closed.
They are actually the opposite of imprisoned in their home.

As for the marathon event that you mentioned which runs(pun!) outside your property- getting hit 3 times in 2 years while riding is insane and I would be really frustrated. I would also definitely do what you ultimately did and not ride my bike on the route during race day. Ride elsewhere if you must ride that day.

[jamesdak]

Originally Posted by mstateglfr

A prisoner in your own home? Come on now. Conversation about frustrating policies, procedures, and activities can be fruitful and interesting up until the point when over the top claims(on either side) are made.
To be clear, the claim that someone feels like a prisoner in their own home is an over the top claim.

B.S. so now you are telling others how they can or cannot feel? Talk about ridiculous. Let me go a bit more indepth on things here. This is a small MT valley with three routes in and out during all but a few months of the year. It is also being overdeveloped and strongly promoted as a recreation site. So on any given day (especially weekends when we're not working and needing to run errands) it's not unusual to have one or two of the routes closed by accidents etc. I mean it's become almost sadly comical and it one of the main grievances we have with our local politicians continueing to promote massive growth up here vs the traditional smart growth policies that used to be in place. Saturday is a prime example. Snow storm so they decided not to clear the divide but to shut it down. Then the usual wrecks in the canyon left us with only one route out that doesn't even take you into town. So yes, we do start feeling like prisoners in our own home and that is not an over the top claim. Until you walk in my shoes don't try and tell me what's going on in my life and I won't tell you what's going on in yours. Sometimes people here just totally crack me up.

And to continue this fun, LOL! Ragnar specific, from my actual house there on only two routes out to access the three ways out of the valley. Both of those ways are totally cluttered with Ragnar traffic for most of the day since Ragnar here is a multi-day event and they come through our valley on the second day. So they are all spread out by the time they get here. Normally if I head out and over the divide it's a 10 minute trip. With Ragnar it will easily be over an hour of sitting in traffic, dodging support vehicles, dodging runners, etc. And this is typical for all the events held up here. This is not like a city where you have so many different options to get in and out. This is typical I would expect of most rural areas.

[benb]

Originally Posted by .RJ

If they cant treat the area they're visiting with respect they dont deserve to come back, plain and simple.

Yep, most of the entitlement is in the participants who can't possibly imagine the race being canceled for lack of a permit, not the property owners and voters in the area who are upset.

We have several well behaved events (both cycling & running) that come through town.. if they stopped behaving the permits would not get renewed in the blink of an eye. Everyone is on board and supportive and as soon as behavior is bad it's over. You have to be desperate with a huge financial incentive to put up with it. A promoter promising taxes that aren't enough to buy a bike to ride in the event has no sway.

[GregL]

Originally Posted by jamesdak

B.S. so now you are telling others how they can or cannot feel? Talk about ridiculous. Let me go a bit more indepth on things here. This is a small MT valley with three routes in and out during all but a few months of the year. It is also being overdeveloped and strongly promoted as a recreation site. So on any given day (especially weekends when we're not working and needing to run errands) it's not unusual to have one or two of the routes closed by accidents etc. I mean it's become almost sadly comical and it one of the main grievances we have with our local politicians continueing to promote massive growth up here vs the traditional smart growth policies that used to be in place. Saturday is a prime example. Snow storm so they decided not to clear the divide but to shut it down. Then the usual wrecks in the canyon left us with only one route out that doesn't even take you into town. So yes, we do start feeling like prisoners in our own home and that is not an over the top claim. Until you walk in my shoes don't try and tell me what's going on in my life and I won't tell you what's going on in yours. Sometimes people here just totally crack me up.

I understand your frustration and empathize with the infrastructure issues you and your neighbors face. I also note that you stated the key problem. It's not the people who are coming to your area and having vehicle accidents. It's the elected officials who are promoting unsustainable policies. Rather than venting about the visitors, I respectfully suggest getting involved in local politics/administration to ensure that the needs of residents are met by their elected officials. We (sometimes disappointedly...) get the exact government that we voted for.

Greg

[zap]

Originally Posted by Alistair

FWIW, the fact that simple trespass (once signage is in place) is a criminal offense in most of the US is completely ****ing bonkers to me.

No Trespassing signs were awfully useful when a neighbor tried to steal some of our land.

[litcrazy]

I think that this is an example of how cycling is perceived among many people in rural.ranching America as something that they identify with an outsider activity. And in large part it's true. It seems that while there are plenty of growing pains and access problems in other developed countries, outdoor recreation is more deeply politicized in America than elsewhere. There have been emerging coolitions between environementalists, hunters and outdoor recreation in Colorado and elsewhere, but this is the exception rather than the norn.

So it's easy and important to ask people here not to generalize about rural America and it's important to ask rural America not to generalize about cyclists, but the conflict is deep, real and bigger than the organizers of any one gravel/outdoor event can solve. It even divides our outdoor recreation for the most part between REI and Cabella's people.
Consequently, better behavior on the part of cyclists is essential, but the issue also comes from the fact that many Americans cyclists are representative as something they are opposed to and something other than them.

That means when one cyclist rolls a red light or is seen peeing on the side of the road, these people generalize to all cyclists. However, when someone is weaving down the highway and putting many other people at genuine risk, people don't tend to generalize that this behavior represents all drivers.

Likewise, through most of America's political history, if a white male politician/public figure behaved badly, that behavior was seen as indicative of individual short coming and not as representing a larger class. However, individual from other categories are often seen a representing their whole category whenever they behave badly. The recent coverage of the resignations of the presidents of Penn and Harvard would be an example of this.

An example of how this plays out in regard to cyclists of this happened to me several years ago; I came to a rolling stop exiting a parking lot and entering a small street after waiting for a car to pass. The car slowed down, rolled down their window and yelled "that's why cyclists die" at me. The tone seemed to be less of concern than justiification and perhaps even desire. I wasn't a human, or simply one individual. I was a cyclist and as such other to them. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't imagine they were rolling down their window and yelling at every car that was speeding that day or made a right turn on red. I imagine most of us would agree that driving the speed limit but below the flow of traffic elicits more anger from other drivers than breaking many more dangerous rules of the road. Cyclists cause extremely few injuries let alone deaths amongst automoible drivers, but drivers often seem quite concerned about my diligence as a cyclist in following the letter of the law.

I think this primarilly occurs that this is because most Americans see cyclists as others disrupting their way of life/rights. This explains why Mitt Romney stands out in his party (particularly in Utah) for his concern about environmental issues leading to the demise of the Great Salt Lake, but also feels quite passionately in his opposition to bike lanes.

Another theory I have for this verbal abuse of cyclists on the roads is that as a driver you have all the power. You can yell at me, because you can harm me but you're insulated from harm or even retort. If a driver rolls up their windows and drives off after yelling at me, the conversation has ended. And as many have discussed here, the police don't often take the side of cyclists in cases of reckless endangerment let alone petty abuse. Most drivers are actually quite respectful to me, but this power dynamic does play out at a regular, albeit infrequent interval.

What does this mean for gravel racing? If cyclists are identifies as an urban/suburban/cosmopolitian other in much of America, they are perceived differently on the road than an inconveniently slow tractor, truck or vintage car. Many rural Americans _feel_ disempowered relative to what the imagine as this unified urban/urbane class (and I know the above cited New Yorker article productively problemitizes much of this self-definition and I know the structure of our government create an overrepresentation of rural power in federal government through the electoral college and the nature of the senate) and this is an oportunity to strike back in what strikes me as a relatively petty way. Gravel races rarely last more than a few days. Gravel races aren't driving up housing costs or impacting the environment in the way that the ski industry does, but they represent a small skirmish in this greater war which the ranchers/farmers can win.

One complicating aspect of this divide is the pride the organizers of SBT GRVL take in building increased inclusivity and outreach. While this aligns with my values and addresses the well-documented lack of diversity in cycling and outdoor recreation in America, I'm not sure these values develop credibility with the opponents of the race. The article highlights this as an argument made by organizers showing they are giving back in the event their' narrative. That counts as giving back for me, but it may signal a further gap with some members of the community who oppose this race and other gravel/outdoor recreation events. I do know that most of the charitable donations actually go to the ranchers in the county and I think that is important.

I live in New Mexico where the rural/urban divide is much less of a race aligned divide than in other parts of the country, because of the history of indigenous and hispanic ranches, farmers and land owners. I have BIPOC friends who ride gravel roads and bikepack, and their experiences and concerns about their safety riding on rural backroads are different from mine. When I asked about parking outside of state park on a rural road in northern New Mexico, for example, in order to save parking fees, a friend comments that he wouldn't because someone had a hung some kind of stuffed dummy from a tree in a clear allusion to lynching on that road. I'm not arguing that this behavior represents the attitudes of most or even many individuals on that road or in rural America, but as a person of color in a vulnerable position riding on a bike through the backcountry, the impact of various flags, signs, and other more egregious symbols can be quite haunting. My wife who is not wife certainly picks up on different signals during backcountry trips than I do, and doesn't always find these area as charming as a result.

Political signs in yards and confederate flags definitely signal who people believe are welcome in an area and who aren't. I saw fewer of these signs when I road the back roads of Steamboat with my son a couple of summers ago and I recognize this will upset people and it touches on politics, but it is real. But since the discussion has extended beyond this one event, I think it's worth mentioning.

If gravel races have the goal of introducing these areas to a more inclusive and diverse segment of America, for example, that highlights the divide between the organizers and people who may feel their vision of America is being either lost or discreditted. I share this inclusive version of America but I realize that many don't. Consequently, the conversation may be about porta-potties and traffic delays, but it likely cuts deeper.