Should I buy a Trek (ethical reasons)

[choke]

Only you can decide if their past history is enough to make a difference.

For me, I'll never own a Trek. I even go further and include anything made by Oakley, Giro and Nike.

[Burnette]

Originally Posted by echappist

So here's the deal. My current race bike is about 5 years, and its components are falling apart. Left shifter is near the end of its service life, front derailleur doesn't really work that well (the braze-on is flexy), and the pinch bolt on the front brake broke from erosion. All could be fixed, but it feels more like that any more I spent on it is less I can spend on a Di2 bike. It still has a bit of life left, but I'm beginning to think that I should get a new bike and go Di2.

I've never liked Trek since I begin to bike seriously. Their sleight of hand on Lemond was rather underhanded, and I don't like how obsequious it was to LA. Personally, I thought i'd never buy a Trek, but never say never right?

The thing is, there's just not a lot of company making decent aero road bikes these days, and most of them either don't test well or are disc-only, not to mention that many are prohibitively expensive. The Aeroad would be an option, but they aren't bringing in the rim brake option anytime soon (not to mention that the bike is less aero than it looks), and the Foil is also not as aero as one'd like. This pretty much leaves just the Madone. $4000 for a full bike (and $5000 by the time I get all the parts I want).

But there's that thought lingering that I shouldn't bring my business to people who aided and abetted. THoughts?

Look at it as a plate of food. If you start taking things off for intellectual reason and take it too it's extreme your plate will be empty. And it harms no one but yourself, you starve yourself and it in no way hurts the cook. People can live their life that way but I wouldn't recommend it. Intolerance limits the life and experiences of the intolerant. And when it's over something so distant it makes even less sense.

IMO they were all asses in their own special way at different times doing different things, for they are human and we all do crap that's unbecoming.

I respect the sentiment but it's a grudge that isn't even yours and really, those who were effect, if mature, have let it go and lived their life. If not, then that's their failure, for life is short and to waste it is to not understand that.

All that said the world is in no shortage of bicycles. For five grand the world is your oyster and the options abound. I agree with most here, pick a few brands with nice aero bikes and check fit. If it fits and hits your price bogey, buy it. Even of it's the Trek Madone.

[rodney]

Love my new Trek Domane. Never thought about Greg or Lance when I bought it. Out of the bikes I demoed the domane fit the best and everybody knows fit is the most important thing. Everbody knows doping is epidemic in pro cycling. So everybody has the same advantage. Lance still won. Plus he raised untold millions for cancer. What has greg lemond done outside of cycling besides bitch? Trek did the right thing. I've had many conversation with trek representatives on their chat line while trying to decide what bike to buy. All representatives were very polite, helpful, and informed. My local trek shop treats me super. Buy what fits and what you desire. Pretty sure that trek, my local shop, and lance have equal or better ethics than lemond.

[MattTuck]

Could be worse, you could buy a specialized.

This is actually a very interesting question. Mainly because the counterfactual is that other companies may have also done shady things (for instance, working conditions in their factories or supplier's factories in Asia), but you just don't know about them. In this case, you might be better off simply giving your money to the company that offers the best product.

If you know for a fact that one company's business practices and values are better than another's, and this is important to you, then go for it, and give your money to the company that you agree with. However, there is an implicit assumption in there that the past behavior is an indicator of current or future values. Not sure if the Trek of today is different than the Trek of the early 2000's. If they are a better company today, then 'voting with your wallet' and buying from them, may reward them for their move in the right direction. If you believe that they still have the same values, and their past behavior was inexcusable, then give them the death penalty and never give them another dime.

This is where a custom bike from a one man shop may be a preferred choice. You have much more visibility into the firm, you can be almost assured (if you do your research and go for a reputable builder) that you're giving your money to someone who deserves it.

[doomridesout]

Originally Posted by MattTuck

Could be worse, you could buy a specialized.

This is actually a very interesting question. Mainly because the counterfactual is that other companies may have also done shady things (for instance, working conditions in their factories or supplier's factories in Asia), but you just don't know about them. In this case, you might be better off simply giving your money to the company that offers the best product.

If you know for a fact that one company's business practices and values are better than another's, and this is important to you, then go for it, and give your money to the company that you agree with. However, there is an implicit assumption in there that the past behavior is an indicator of current or future values. Not sure if the Trek of today is different than the Trek of the early 2000's. If they are a better company today, then 'voting with your wallet' and buying from them, may reward them for their move in the right direction. If you believe that they still have the same values, and their past behavior was inexcusable, then give them the death penalty and never give them another dime.

This is where a custom bike from a one man shop may be a preferred choice. You have much more visibility into the firm, you can be almost assured (if you do your research and go for a reputable builder) that you're giving your money to someone who deserves it.

The bolded text is the dispositive question you have to answer for yourself.

[oldpotatoe]

[QUOTE=rodney[/QUOTE]

Pretty sure that trek, my local shop, and lance have equal or better ethics than lemond.

?? At the risk of this becoming a 'doping by dikcs', thread.

[OtayBW]

Originally Posted by seramount

if you have a conscience about a company's actions, act on it.

I haven't bought a single gallon of gasoline from exxon since the valdez incident.

+100.

[echappist]

Originally Posted by MattTuck

Could be worse, you could buy a specialized.

This is actually a very interesting question. Mainly because the counterfactual is that other companies may have also done shady things (for instance, working conditions in their factories or supplier's factories in Asia), but you just don't know about them. In this case, you might be better off simply giving your money to the company that offers the best product.

If you know for a fact that one company's business practices and values are better than another's, and this is important to you, then go for it, and give your money to the company that you agree with. However, there is an implicit assumption in there that the past behavior is an indicator of current or future values. Not sure if the Trek of today is different than the Trek of the early 2000's. If they are a better company today, then 'voting with your wallet' and buying from them, may reward them for their move in the right direction. If you believe that they still have the same values, and their past behavior was inexcusable, then give them the death penalty and never give them another dime.

This is where a custom bike from a one man shop may be a preferred choice. You have much more visibility into the firm, you can be almost assured (if you do your research and go for a reputable builder) that you're giving your money to someone who deserves it.

I think this hits the proverbial nail on its head. Colloquially, America is the land of second opportunities (how true that may be is certainly up for debate), but just like how society could never forgive certain transgressions, I wonder if there are any that one'd be hard pressed to overlook.

I graduated from a high school in PA, and I currently live in PA. If I have a kid, I may have serious reservations about having him/her attending Penn State for the role the administration played in the cover-up. The administration would certainly be different 20 years or so from now, but there are things heinous enough as to not warrant another penny (in line with the point you made).

Volkswagen's systematic cheating (or rather, conspiracy and fraud, to drive home just what the company did) stems from the top. The deleterious effect is spread amongst society at large and shows up only in population statistics, with effects on an individual hard to ascertain. How do we assess the seriousness of having a few months taken off of someone's life?

On another example a bit more closer to the original topic, we have Carmichael. I regret to say that I once bought his book, b/c there wasn't many others out there at the time that addressed the issue of time constrained cyclists. But I can unequivocally say that I'd not give a cent to him or anyone else affiliated with him, and that I would actively persuade others not to do the same, due to his past transgression. He doped junior racers without the consent of the racers, and made a settlement out of court. To me, that alone means that he (and any business with which he's associated) won't see another dime. That he was able to increase his name recognition by being the purported coach of LA (essentially an alibi for LA) just further poisons the well.

Sometimes it feels like it has to come down to a very cynical approach to thing: on the plus column we have; on the minus column we have... One of the bikes i'm looking at is the Felt AR; however, I do recall reading somewhere that Jim Felt had some sort of working relationship with Armstrong...

[Burnette]

Originally Posted by echappist

I think this hits the proverbial nail on its head. Colloquially, America is the land of second opportunities (how true that may be is certainly up for debate), but just like how society could never forgive certain transgressions, I wonder if there are any that one'd be hard pressed to overlook.

I graduated from a high school in PA, and I currently live in PA. If I have a kid, I may have serious reservations about having him/her attending Penn State for the role the administration played in the cover-up. The administration would certainly be different 20 years or so from now, but there are things heinous enough as to not warrant another penny (in line with the point you made).

Volkswagen's systematic cheating (or rather, conspiracy and fraud, to drive home just what the company did) stems from the top. The deleterious effect is spread amongst society at large and shows up only in population statistics, with effects on an individual hard to ascertain. How do we assess the seriousness of having a few months taken off of someone's life?

On another example a bit more closer to the original topic, we have Carmichael. I regret to say that I once bought his book, b/c there wasn't many others out there at the time that addressed the issue of time constrained cyclists. But I can unequivocally say that I'd not give a cent to him or anyone else affiliated with him, and that I would actively persuade others not to do the same, due to his past transgression. He doped junior racers without the consent of the racers, and made a settlement out of court. To me, that alone means that he (and any business with which he's associated) won't see another dime. That he was able to increase his name recognition by being the purported coach of LA (essentially an alibi for LA) just further poisons the well.

Sometimes it feels like it has to come down to a very cynical approach to thing: on the plus column we have; on the minus column we have... One of the bikes i'm looking at is the Felt AR; however, I do recall reading somewhere that Jim Felt had some sort of working relationship with Armstrong...

If there was a point of absurdity I think the first post was it, but hey, we all have our thing. Now this one is pushing it faster down a cliff by doubling down on the look for something to worry about.

Hand wringing over spending five grand on a bicycle while agonizing over past transgressions of companies has to be the height of first world problem madness.

It's not hurting any company whether you buy or not and the only effect it's having is a negative one upon yourself. It seems to be tying you up in the weirdest of conundrums. Appreciate what a privileged and also crazy position you seem to be in.

This seems to have near nothing to do with bicycles and all to do with an existential exercise. I guess it's different, we won't all get caught up in frames, wheels and group sets on this one, it will be about the past of companies. And that doesn't sound fun at all. Or something that produces a good outcome. Good luck with that.

[echappist]

Originally Posted by Burnette

[/B]

If there was a point of absurdity I think the first post was it, but hey, we all have our thing. Now this one is pushing it faster down a cliff by doubling down on the look for something to worry about.

Hand wringing over spending five grand on a bicycle while agonizing over past transgressions of companies has to be the height of first world problem madness.

It's not hurting any company whether you buy or not and the only effect it's having is a negative one upon yourself. It seems to be tying you up in the weirdest of conundrums. Appreciate what a privileged and also crazy position you seem to be in.

This seems to have near nothing to do with bicycles and all to do with an existential exercise. I guess it's different, we won't all get caught up in frames, wheels and group sets on this one, it will be about the past of companies. And that doesn't sound fun at all. Or something that produces a good outcome. Good luck with that.

you know, i was about to type just those two points in my last post. i mean, $4k on a bike, it's not the height of first-world problems, then it oughtta be pretty high up there.

thanks again to everyone for chiming in. what i really wanted to read were people's perspective. I think in the end, it's highly likely that I might end up with the Trek or the Felt. And as if there isn't enough FWP in this thread, I'm also wondering if I should buy the bike in Delaware, as it would save me a few hundred on taxes

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by echappist

you know, i was about to type just those two points in my last post. i mean, $4k on a bike, it's not the height of first-world problems, then it oughtta be pretty high up there.

thanks again to everyone for chiming in. what i really wanted to read were people's perspective. I think in the end, it's highly likely that I might end up with the Trek or the Felt. And as if there isn't enough FWP in this thread, I'm also wondering if I should buy the bike in Delaware, as it would save me a few hundred on taxes

Have you SEEN the politics in Delaware!!! OMfargingDOG!!! Just kidding..get the Trek.

[Burnette]

Originally Posted by echappist

you know, i was about to type just those two points in my last post. i mean, $4k on a bike, it's not the height of first-world problems, then it oughtta be pretty high up there.

thanks again to everyone for chiming in. what i really wanted to read were people's perspective. I think in the end, it's highly likely that I might end up with the Trek or the Felt. And as if there isn't enough FWP in this thread, I'm also wondering if I should buy the bike in Delaware, as it would save me a few hundred on taxes

As you have shown yourself to be a tax dodger and therefore hate America I can no longer buy anything from you in the classifieds.

Just kidding, get your Trek and ride the hell out of it. If you have the resources to enjoy luxuries don't let the squabbles of strangers impede on the fun.

And post up pictures and thoughts of the bike when you get it. New bike day, now that's fun!

[Cloozoe]

Simple: If you have ethical issues with Trek you can either buy one anyway, thus demonstrating to yourself that your ethics are bull$%t, to be discarded as soon as they become even slightly inconvenient, or get something else.

[FlashUNC]

Originally Posted by echappist

I think this hits the proverbial nail on its head. Colloquially, America is the land of second opportunities (how true that may be is certainly up for debate), but just like how society could never forgive certain transgressions, I wonder if there are any that one'd be hard pressed to overlook.

I graduated from a high school in PA, and I currently live in PA. If I have a kid, I may have serious reservations about having him/her attending Penn State for the role the administration played in the cover-up. The administration would certainly be different 20 years or so from now, but there are things heinous enough as to not warrant another penny (in line with the point you made).

Volkswagen's systematic cheating (or rather, conspiracy and fraud, to drive home just what the company did) stems from the top. The deleterious effect is spread amongst society at large and shows up only in population statistics, with effects on an individual hard to ascertain. How do we assess the seriousness of having a few months taken off of someone's life?

On another example a bit more closer to the original topic, we have Carmichael. I regret to say that I once bought his book, b/c there wasn't many others out there at the time that addressed the issue of time constrained cyclists. But I can unequivocally say that I'd not give a cent to him or anyone else affiliated with him, and that I would actively persuade others not to do the same, due to his past transgression. He doped junior racers without the consent of the racers, and made a settlement out of court. To me, that alone means that he (and any business with which he's associated) won't see another dime. That he was able to increase his name recognition by being the purported coach of LA (essentially an alibi for LA) just further poisons the well.

Sometimes it feels like it has to come down to a very cynical approach to thing: on the plus column we have; on the minus column we have... One of the bikes i'm looking at is the Felt AR; however, I do recall reading somewhere that Jim Felt had some sort of working relationship with Armstrong...

Your choices and comfort with a company's past are your own, but you can't write "I buy this in protest of what you did in the past" on what you spend with them. Trek surely doesn't care about the finger wagging and tsk-tsking if you, yanno, still show up at the cash register.

Your only mechanism to make your point known as a consumer is to not spend with those who you find objectionable, whatever those personal criteria may be.

[rain dogs]

Considering all the bicycles in that price range are basically all going to be more or less the same in terms of real-world performance* buy the bike that excites you, seduces you, captivates your imagination or whatever gets you amped.... that each time you look at it you think, this bike is sooooo rad.

The Trek will never be that bike, at least not for you. Everytime you go to get it you'll think.... ugh.... Trek.

ugh... Trek. Don't buy the Trek. Don't buy what you already know you don't want.


(*and anyone telling you otherwise is lying or deluded, cause the pros... who are dialed to the finest 0,000001% of performance don't see a diff - it always has been and always will be the legs. The top five of the Vuelta was Scott, Specialized, Argon18, Bianchi and Canyon... best Trek rider was 16th... it's the legs.)