OT: any pilots / aircraft owners / airplane geeks?

[saab2000]

Originally Posted by rePhil

Our friend saab2000 might be into flying

I fly them but I’m less into it than one might imagine. Having grown up in Appleton I’ve been to the Oshkosh show countless times. It’s a circus but a fun circus. Hasn’t changed much in decades actually. Never flew there because I could always drive and I have no idea how to safely fly those airplanes!

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by Bruce K

skyrider worked his way up to a commercial - multi engine - instrument rating but then changed direction

BK

Civilian path is a tough one..read-BIG $$. To ATP, YUGE $..
My CMEL/Instrument was $ and an application...ATP..$900 plus an afternoon...

BUT, flying ANYTHING is a rich man's sport. Owning and flying and MAINTAINING something like below is for the rich and famous for sure.

My favorite..if I win a lottery(and it's gotta be a big one)..gonna get one(and a crew to maintain it)..then buy The F-4U's younger brother, the 'other' F-4..

[dave thompson]

Here ya go Peter. You can thank me later. https://www.controller.com/listings/...ht-f4u-corsair

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by dave thompson

Here ya go Peter. You can thank me later. https://www.controller.com/listings/...ht-f4u-corsair

Thanks..gee, a bargain..gotta spend $50 to 'unlock' annual fixed and variable costs but both are 6 figures...4 figure hourly expenses...yowser..

47 hours..and ya know, he'll sell it no problem.

Tom Cruise owns a P-51(among others)...

[saab2000]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

Civilian path is a tough one..read-BIG $$. To ATP, YUGE $..

Yes, but..... for many the payoff is big too. The key is to have quality guidance. Too many folks will spend the yuge $$$ but have no chance of a quality job. There are flight schools that’ll take all your money. Happily. Knowing you aren’t employable.

The reputable ones will pull you aside early and let you know to pursue other paths in life.

And professional aviation (read MAJOR airlines) is much more about timing and luck than skill.

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by saab2000

Yes, but..... for many the payoff is big too. The key is to have quality guidance. Too many folks will spend the yuge $$$ but have no chance of a quality job. There are flight schools that’ll take all your money. Happily. Knowing you aren’t employable.

The reputable ones will pull you aside early and let you know to pursue other paths in life.

And professional aviation (read MAJOR airlines) is much more about timing and luck than skill.

Tell me about it..I sent out about 2 dozen requests for applications...in late 1992 and got one application, from United, cuz I had a guy on the inside.

I interviewed with a pile of Flying Tiger guys, right after FT went under..some where 747 Captains..

Didn't get hired... Was told outright by American I was too old, "we only hire potential Captains", and a guy at AA said, "10 years to Captain and we want you there for 10 years"..I was 42..mandatory retire at the time..60 YO.

Also told by Customs I was too old to apply..35 YO max...FAA had hiring freeze.....so..into the bike biz...

BUT..cannot fly..way too much $ to turn AVGAS into noise in some bugsmasher(172 'about' $100 per hour)...Tried for a while but even $200-$300 per month(3 hours) way too much...

[Ken Robb]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

BUT..cannot fly..way too much $ to turn AVGAS into noise in some bugsmasher(172 'about' $100 per hour)...Tried for a while but even $200-$300 per month(3 hours) way too much...

When I learned to fly in 1967 I paid $7 per hour WET for a 150! Of course it was a low-overhead FBO on a 2000 foot grass strip.

[saab2000]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

Tell me about it..I sent out about 2 dozen requests for applications...in late 1992 and got one application, from United, cuz I had a guy on the inside.

I interviewed with a pile of Flying Tiger guys, right after FT went under..some where 747 Captains..

Didn't get hired... Was told outright by American I was too old, "we only hire potential Captains", and a guy at AA said, "10 years to Captain and we want you there for 10 years"..I was 42..mandatory retire at the time..60 YO.

Also told by Customs I was too old to apply..35 YO max...FAA had hiring freeze.....so..into the bike biz...

BUT..cannot fly..way too much $ to turn AVGAS into noise in some bugsmasher(172 'about' $100 per hour)...Tried for a while but even $200-$300 per month(3 hours) way too much...

It's such a gamble. I've been fortunate in that I've had over 20 years of near-continuous employment in aviation (5 on the ground before my first flying job) but languished in a regional airline for 12 years overlapping the "Lost Decade" as it's known in around 2008 and then the retirement age was raised to 65. This meant that if you were on the outside you weren't getting hired. And if you were employed your job was always at risk and there was essentially zero movement in the industry for a decade. And a 5-year window with zero movement as there was no attrition.

I was fortunate enough to have made it to the left seat before the music stopped but my seniority basically didn't move for 5+ years, which is an eternity in the aviation business. By the time I was able to consider a move to a major airline I was in my mid-40s with 10000+ hours, most of it captain time. So I was also considered "Untrainable" and went to many career fairs and talked to many folks only to not be offered a formal interview. I've passed every interview I've had so that's all I wanted.

Finally I made it out of the regional circus 3.5 years ago and today work at a major airline but that was nearly two decades in the making, and I consider my career to have been a good one. I'm incredibly grateful for what I have and it's frustrating to hear guys younger than myself who snuck in before the mid-2000s slump who are now senior captains making big money who whine about everything not knowing how good they have it.

I've had a good career but I'm very cautious about advising others to get into this business. Get in young and with your eyes wide open to the fact that luck and timing are every bit as important as skill and training and personality. It is a minefield to a good job and the pathway to a major is littered with broken dreams.

[GregL]

Originally Posted by saab2000

It's such a gamble. I've been fortunate in that I've had over 20 years of near-continuous employment in aviation (5 on the ground before my first flying job) but languished in a regional airline for 12 years overlapping the "Lost Decade" as it's known in around 2008 and then the retirement age was raised to 65. This meant that if you were on the outside you weren't getting hired. And if you were employed your job was always at risk and there was essentially zero movement in the industry for a decade. And a 5-year window with zero movement as there was no attrition.

I was fortunate enough to have made it to the left seat before the music stopped but my seniority basically didn't move for 5+ years, which is an eternity in the aviation business. By the time I was able to consider a move to a major airline I was in my mid-40s with 10000+ hours, most of it captain time. So I was also considered "Untrainable" and went to many career fairs and talked to many folks only to not be offered a formal interview. I've passed every interview I've had so that's all I wanted.

Finally I made it out of the regional circus 3.5 years ago and today work at a major airline but that was nearly two decades in the making, and I consider my career to have been a good one. I'm incredibly grateful for what I have and it's frustrating to hear guys younger than myself who snuck in before the mid-2000s slump who are now senior captains making big money who whine about everything not knowing how good they have it.

I've had a good career but I'm very cautious about advising others to get into this business. Get in young and with your eyes wide open to the fact that luck and timing are every bit as important as skill and training and personality. It is a minefield to a good job and the pathway to a major is littered with broken dreams.

Thank you for an excellent summary of an airline pilot career in recent years! I left the industry in the mid 1990s because I could see the coming turmoil. I had a good career in corporate aviation at the time, but the major airlines were the only path to financial security in flying. At the same time, the airline business model seemed to be “whoever goes bankrupt last wins.” I lost patience with the financial absurdity of the industry and jumped to engineering. My engineering career has been rewarding and stable, but certainly not the joy of flying a jet. I hope to get back to flying (for fun) in a few short years when my daughter is out of college.

Greg

[saab2000]

Originally Posted by GregL

Thank you for an excellent summary of an airline pilot career in recent years! I left the industry in the mid 1990s because I could see the coming turmoil. I had a good career in corporate aviation at the time, but the major airlines were the only path to financial security in flying. At the same time, the airline business model seemed to be “whoever goes bankrupt last wins.” I lost patience with the financial absurdity of the industry and jumped to engineering. My engineering career has been rewarding and stable, but certainly not the joy of flying a jet. I hope to get back to flying (for fun) in a few short years when my daughter is out of college.

Greg

Yup. I've been able to make it work because I'm single and just consider the life disruptions and instability to be part of the cost of doing this business. But I've also seen aviation ruin lives and marriages and I fly with people every day who miss their kids' big events and raise their families over the phone.

It is not for everyone, by a long shot.

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by saab2000

Yup. I've been able to make it work because I'm single and just consider the life disruptions and instability to be part of the cost of doing this business. But I've also seen aviation ruin lives and marriages and I fly with people every day who miss their kids' big events and raise their families over the phone.

It is not for everyone, by a long shot.

Yup, there’s a reason Maverick is still single

[teleguy57]

So enjoy seeing this discussion with contributions from my friend Saab and all around good guy OP. While I live in Appleton, I've only gone to EAA three times.

This week we've been up in Door County with kids and grandkids, but had a real treat Friday when a pair of F-35s in for EAA did a low a pass over the place we rented on Green Bay. We took not of how quiet (relatively) they were! Amazing looking aircraft

[Yoshi]

Geez guys its not that bad.

I started out in the early 80's. Got on with a commuter in 84 and a major in 94. I have been through five mergers and lost several years seniority in all but one. Just as I was getting close to upgrading mandatory retirement changed from 60 to 65.

Looong time in the right seat.

Despite all the tumult since deregulation it's still by far the best job I ever had and there is no other job where I (personally) could have made as much money or had the experiences that I've had.
For the last 12 years I have been doing ultra long haul on the 777 and those have been the best 12 years of my life. Europe, Middle East, Japan, China, Hong Kong, Polar Ops....would not trade that stuff for anything.
Also, I believe prospects for those starting out are significantly better these days. Some places are even offering signing and retention bonuses IIRC.

[cloudchaser]

I second Yoshi's response. I was lucky enough to be at the right place and time to get on with a major, but not so lucky to get to spend the career in the left seat. Right seat in the 787 seeing the world suits me so well, I have no interest in being a domestic captain.

The times are so much better for some one starting out today. There are hiring and retention bonuses. Today you aren't making $24k starting out at a regional. Making $50k+ is more likely. All the US Majors have huge retirement numbers over the next decade, so the upside looks good. But there are unknowns. Both Airbus and Boeing are working on autonomous cockpits. Even if that comes to fruition as just a single pilot cockpit, that will have a huge affect on pilot hiring. The time and expense to get your ratings is huge. The military provides a cost effective way to do that, but you are locked in to 10+ years of service if you are active duty. The guard and reserves proved the ideal solution with the military training that airlines want and the part time work commitment that lets you start at the airlines much sooner. Civilian route can cost $100k+ to get your licenses and then you still need to build time.

It can be an awesome career. But if you aren't the kind of person who stops whatever you are doing in the backyard to gawk at everything that flies over, then it will be just a job.

[OtayBW]

I just have one question: Don't you guys up there in the cockpit get really (or a little bit) freaked out when you get into some of that wicked tubulence and all that? I mean, if ~160 people in the back are freaking out, don't you get a little jarred as well????