The Save the Planet thread

[Clancy]

Originally Posted by Tickdoc

I realize I am in the minority here, but my conscience can't allow me to believe things that are unproven or illogical. I am terrible at maths but this math just doesn't work for me.

The ignorance of climate change deniers is staggering and unfortunately not in the minority.

And the reason we are beyond the tipping point.

But really, who cares! Bring on Amazon Prime Days!

Staggering

[Elefantino]

One of the last, and most memorable, performances by a brilliant satirist. Bears repeating here when we talk about saving the planet vs. ourselves.

Whatever your politics (arguably the greatest and most consequential tragedy in human history is how the environment became political), we are *long* past the tipping point.

Your individual contributions matter only in that you can tell your children and grandchildren that you tried.

Originally Posted by George Carlin

There is nothing wrong with the planet, nothing wrong with the planet. The planet is fine. The people are ****ed. Difference. Difference. The planet is fine. Compared to the people, the planet is doin’ great! It’s been here four and a half billion years. Did you ever think about the arithmetic? The planet has been here four and a half billion years. We’ve been here, what? A hundred thousand? Maybe two hundred thousand and we’ve only been engaged in heavy industry for a little over two hundred years. Two hundred years versus four and a half billion. And we have the conceit to think that somehow we’re a threat? That somehow we’re gonna put in jeopardy this beautiful little blue-green ball that’s just a floatin’ around the sun? The planet has been through a lot worse than us. Been through all kinds of things worse than us. Been through earthquakes, volcanoes, plate tectonics, continental drift, solar flares, sunspots, magnetic storms, the magnetic reversal of the poles, hundreds of thousands of years of bombardment by comets and asteroids, and meteors, world-wide floods, tidal waves, world-wide fires, erosion, cosmic rays, recurring ice ages, and we think some plastic bags and some aluminum cans are going to make a difference?

The planet isn’t going anywhere. We are! We’re goin’ away. Pack your ****, Folks, we’re goin’ away. We won’t leave much of a trace either, thank God for that. Maybe a little styrofoam, maybe, little styrofoam. Planet’ll be here and we’ll be long gone. Just another failed mutation. Just another closed-end biological mistake, an evolutionary cul de sac. The planet will shake us off like a bad case of fleas, a surface nuisance. You wanna know how the planet’s doin’? Ask those people at Pompeii, who were frozen into position from volcanic ash. How the planet’s doin’. Wanna know if the planet’s alright, ask those people in Mexico City or Armenia, or a hundred other places buried under thousands of tons of earthquake rubble if they feel like a threat to the planet this week. How about those people in Kilauea, Hawaii, who built their homes right next to an active volcano and then wonder why they have lava in the living room. The planet will be here for a long, long, long time after we’re gone and it will heal itself, it will cleanse itself ’cuz that’s what it does. It’s a self-correcting system. The air and the water will recover, the earth will be renewed, and if it’s true that plastic is not degradable well, the planet will simply incorporate plastic into a new paradigm: the earth plus plastic. The earth doesn’t share our prejudice towards plastic. Plastic came out of the earth. The earth probably sees plastic as just another one of its children. Could be the only reason the earth allows us to be spawned from it in the first place: it wanted plastic for itself. Didn’t know how to make it, needed us. Could be the answer to our age-old philosophical question, “Why are we here?” “Plastic, ***holes.”

So, so, the plastic is here, our job is done, we can be phased out now.

[Mzilliox]

there is no impact a single person can have that is meaningful. nothing short of massive policy change and cultural change is going to do the job.

this does include shaming poor behavior, as i know no other way to make 30% of the humans on this planet care. the planet is way more important than a few fragile egos to me.

this isnt just about climate change. you guys spend time outdoors, (well most of you do anyway). you see the signs, its pretty obvious we are not taking care of things.

Im very pessimistic, to the point i decided no kids. how can one not be?

[Mzilliox]

Originally Posted by Tickdoc

I heard all trees would vanish from the planet when I was about 10yoa. At the time I loved to draw and I asked for paper for my birthday present because I was so scared of losing all the trees and not having paper. It never occurred to me that the loss of toilet paper would have posed a much greater hardship if that disastrous scenario had occurred.

That galvanized my distrust of scientific reports and data and also led to my disbelief that we are causing any of this warming. The planet is warming because that what it do. We are in that cycle and it will cool and warm and cool and warm again ad infinitum.

I'm going to drink through plastic straws and wear nitrile gloves while wiping myself with the best damn products I can find.

Recycle, reuse (well, not the wipes, and conserve when you can. I love the thought of harnessing power from your best available resources whatever they may be, but I am thoroughly unconvinced that this fear mongering is the proper use of science. The salvation of $100k all electric cars does not help anything. It does nothing to minimize the ecological deficit it provides. You just can't convince me otherwise.

I realize I am in the minority here, but my conscience can't allow me to believe things that are unproven or illogical. I am terrible at maths but this math just doesn't work for me.

this is shocking. do you only ride zwift now? the math doesnt need to work, we arent doing math. our understanding of natural workings is nowhere near complete, there is more we do not know than we do know. but we can all see patterns... unless our heads are buried in the sand

[Davist]

One thing that has become apparent, even if you/me are thinking we're doing the right thing (in this case recycling being incinerated) in some cases it is not being done by those whom we trust to do..

https://www.phillymag.com/news/2019/...g-incinerator/

China refusing recycling (known as "foreign garbage" ie not being recycled there either):
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/29/c...ic-papers.html

Back to the OP, why are you using so many cable ties that you worry about recycling? I view them as semi permanent, like a fender mount for the winter. They (original nylon ty-raps) should be recyclable, and there are re usable options. I also use Velcro (real Velcro brand) tape (double sided loops on one side/hooks on other) from Joann fabrics for most bike things (like when the fake Velcro wears out on saddle bags, or to hold a frame pump, etc)

[Kirk007]

Interesting questions - what to do? does it make a difference? If it doesn't make a difference should I do it anyway?

As someone who walked away from a lucrative career in the private practice of law to pursue the Quixodic quest to do my part to save the nonhuman species on earth, I ask myself these questions frequently.

What to do? What you can. Will it matter or makle a difference? Maybe, but I've been at this a long time and many/most times I go through this mental exercise I conclde no, we're screwed. But then I put that out of mind and carry on. Why?

In my view there are only two fundamental choices: excercise individual responsibility and do what you can in hopes that we find a way out of this mess or essentially say it's hopeless so I'm just gonna live my life without regard. When I look at or think of my son, I choose the former. For me it's that simple.

So I say do what you can and you are comfortable with, whether its fewer airline flights, giving up (or eating less beef), recycling nitrile gloves and not using zip ties. But none of us are perfect and few if any of us will live a life of truly minimal impact. That makes it easy for others to point fingers and cry hypocrite, and factually they're not wrong. But if we let perfect be the enemy of the good then surely we are doomed.

There are now about 7.7 homo sapiens on earth. Two hundred years ago we numbered about 1 million. Each individual eats, craps, uses, consumes. Consumes what? Goods grown, raised or manufactured on this little green orb in space. Are resources disappearing? Google is coming out with an interesting tool that allows one to view time elapsed aerial photos showing landscape level changes over reasonably long periods of time (forgetting the name right now but will look for it) - it's impactful - pictures worth a thousand words - and demonstrates some of the changes we have wrought.

While we've raised the earth's capacity to grow food and accomodate us because we are very clever, if you think about it every conflict on earth can be reduced to issues of control and power that are fundamentally tied to resource scarcity and control, and with a changing climate expect those conflicts to worsen. Why do folks think many people are trying to migrate elsewhere, like to here. When the place that you have lived your life is sinking into the sea or desolately dry and unable to provide, what do you do? When the resources in your country are controlled by a different tribe that believes there's only enough for members of that tribe and no "others" what do you do? If you are powerful and determine there are insufficient resources for your tribe, and your neighbors are weak, what happens?

Unless you believe that homo sapiens are not animals like all the rest of the species on earth, it's not hard to observe populations dynamics, behaivor and what happens when species are confronted by scarcity. And its easy to read books about how we have migrated across continents, laying waste to food sources, like fisheries and other resources., and then looking for the next supply. We have not escaped fundamental ecological and biological realities, and at some point I fear the consequences for all life on earth will be severe.

[fiamme red]

Originally Posted by Kirk007

There are now about 7.7 homo sapiens on earth. Two hundred years ago we numbered about 1 million. Each individual eats, craps, uses, consumes. Consumes what? Goods grown, raised or manufactured on this little green orb in space. Are resources disappearing? Google is coming out with an interesting tool that allows one to view time elapsed aerial photos showing landscape level changes over reasonably long periods of time (forgetting the name right now but will look for it) - it's impactful - pictures worth a thousand words - and demonstrates some of the changes we have wrought.

It was interesting to see the chronological aerial views of Bothwell Ranch in San Fernando Valley from 1947 to 2002: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/11/u...nge-grove.html.

In Orange County, NY, farmland has disappeared quickly during my lifetime, making way for sprawling McMansions with huge lawns. Now that we get cheap food from overseas, local farming is unprofitable.

[Mzilliox]

Very well said. I like your style
we keep on because we have only this life to get right, and i intend to live this life my best. that doesnt mean lazy easy "best" with technology and yachts and cheating and running people over. that means leaving my slice of earth better than i found it. this lazy way forward humans have taken, grabbing resources at will and creating just as much waste is really weird, and no way to characterize a best way to live.

Originally Posted by Kirk007

Interesting questions - what to do? does it make a difference? If it doesn't make a difference should I do it anyway?

As someone who walked away from a lucrative career in the private practice of law to pursue the Quixodic quest to do my part to save the nonhuman species on earth, I ask myself these questions frequently.

What to do? What you can. Will it matter or makle a difference? Maybe, but I've been at this a long time and many/most times I go through this mental exercise I conclde no, we're screwed. But then I put that out of mind and carry on. Why?

In my view there are only two fundamental choices: excercise individual responsibility and do what you can in hopes that we find a way out of this mess or essentially say it's hopeless so I'm just gonna live my life without regard. When I look at or think of my son, I choose the former. For me it's that simple.

So I say do what you can and you are comfortable with, whether its fewer airline flights, giving up (or eating less beef), recycling nitrile gloves and not using zip ties. But none of us are perfect and few if any of us will live a life of truly minimal impact. That makes it easy for others to point fingers and cry hypocrite, and factually they're not wrong. But if we let perfect be the enemy of the good then surely we are doomed.

There are now about 7.7 homo sapiens on earth. Two hundred years ago we numbered about 1 million. Each individual eats, craps, uses, consumes. Consumes what? Goods grown, raised or manufactured on this little green orb in space. Are resources disappearing? Google is coming out with an interesting tool that allows one to view time elapsed aerial photos showing landscape level changes over reasonably long periods of time (forgetting the name right now but will look for it) - it's impactful - pictures worth a thousand words - and demonstrates some of the changes we have wrought.

While we've raised the earth's capacity to grow food and accomodate us because we are very clever, if you think about it every conflict on earth can be reduced to issues of control and power that are fundamentally tied to resource scarcity and control, and with a changing climate expect those conflicts to worsen. Why do folks think many people are trying to migrate elsewhere, like to here. When the place that you have lived your life is sinking into the sea or desolately dry and unable to provide, what do you do? When the resources in your country are controlled by a different tribe that believes there's only enough for members of that tribe and no "others" what do you do? If you are powerful and determine there are insufficient resources for your tribe, and your neighbors are weak, what happens?

Unless you believe that homo sapiens are not animals like all the rest of the species on earth, it's not hard to observe populations dynamics, behaivor and what happens when species are confronted by scarcity. And its easy to read books about how we have migrated across continents, laying waste to food sources, like fisheries and other resources., and then looking for the next supply. We have not escaped fundamental ecological and biological realities, and at some point I fear the consequences for all life on earth will be severe.

[2LeftCleats]

Great response, Kirk! Well written.

To quote ‘The Graduate’, “One word. Plastics.” I find it appalling how much of what we buy is packaged in non-degradable, non- recyclable material. Sometimes it’s the best way to protect an item but most often it’s a nuisance and unnecessary. The recyclers in the last 2 cities I’ve lived in (and I think it reflects the national reality) have severely restricted what plastic they accept. So it ends up in landfills and oceans.

I’m no fan of Wal-mart, but it is such a huge player, that it can demand changes in packaging and shipping that are more environmentally friendly. My belief is that while whatever things we can do personally are important and example-setting, the real change must come at the societal level. It’s encouraging to see corporations, states, and cities do an end-run around our complacent national government.

[daker13]

I took marciero's original post to be asking, what can we cyclists--or let's say, the cyclists who care about such things--do to reduce our carbon footprint?

There's a related problem, though: in asking about the ways we can reduce our footprint on the planet, we inevitably have to deal with the question of whether any of these actions are 'worth it.' And this leaves the door open to anyone who doesn't believe that humans play a role in climate change, doesn't believe in climate change at all, doesn't think we can or should do anything about it, etc.

I'd prefer if the thread set aside the larger questions about climate change and simply focused on material things like the ones marciero mentioned--nitrile gloves, etc. Clearly environmentally friendly products form a distinctly successful market within the cycling community--citrus degreaser, things like that. And cycling itself is obviously an 'environmentally friendly' practice.

Granted, the meta questions are hard to ignore. But I think most of us are familiar with the various arguments for and against belief in climate change.

Here's a meta question, for example: I read recently that 100 companies are responsible for 70% of global warming (though this statistic has been disputed--surprise, surprise). So some argue that it's irresponsible to focus on individual consumer acts, when global warming isn't actually a result of you riding a bike to the post office, rather than taking your car.

Still, I'd be curious to hear people's ideas about what specific things we bike riders can do to reduce waste--assuming that it makes a difference.

[echappist]

Originally Posted by Tickdoc

I heard all trees would vanish from the planet when I was about 10yoa. At the time I loved to draw and I asked for paper for my birthday present because I was so scared of losing all the trees and not having paper. It never occurred to me that the loss of toilet paper would have posed a much greater hardship if that disastrous scenario had occurred.

That galvanized my distrust of scientific reports and data and also led to my disbelief that we are causing any of this warming. The planet is warming because that what it do. We are in that cycle and it will cool and warm and cool and warm again ad infinitum.

I'm going to drink through plastic straws and wear nitrile gloves while wiping myself with the best damn products I can find.

Recycle, reuse (well, not the wipes, and conserve when you can. I love the thought of harnessing power from your best available resources whatever they may be, but I am thoroughly unconvinced that this fear mongering is the proper use of science. The salvation of $100k all electric cars does not help anything. It does nothing to minimize the ecological deficit it provides. You just can't convince me otherwise.

I realize I am in the minority here, but my conscience can't allow me to believe things that are unproven or illogical. I am terrible at maths but this math just doesn't work for me.

funny that one so highly trained in one area of the sciences can be so irreverently glib when it comes to other areas. And do please spare us of what your conscience does or doesn't allow you to do. You want to conserve, fine; you feel it's too inconvenient, fine, but spare of us your "conscience" causing you to reflexively dismiss scientific reports. It's just your solipsism in action.

the whole climate change "debate" is well settled in just about every other developed country, including those of conservative political persuasions. Of course, whether conservative leaning politicians do anything of substance is another fact altogether, but at least they don't deny it.

that said, you are right about the "salvation of $100k all electric cars". Unless the electricity is recharged using hydro, wind, nuclear (horrors, /s), it's just a less direct way of burning of fossil fuel or coal

Originally Posted by Kirk007

Interesting questions - what to do? does it make a difference? If it doesn't make a difference should I do it anyway?

As someone who walked away from a lucrative career in the private practice of law to pursue the Quixodic quest to do my part to save the nonhuman species on earth, I ask myself these questions frequently.

What to do? What you can. Will it matter or makle a difference? Maybe, but I've been at this a long time and many/most times I go through this mental exercise I conclde no, we're screwed. But then I put that out of mind and carry on. Why?

In my view there are only two fundamental choices: excercise individual responsibility and do what you can in hopes that we find a way out of this mess or essentially say it's hopeless so I'm just gonna live my life without regard. When I look at or think of my son, I choose the former. For me it's that simple.

well said and cogent

[Tickdoc]

Originally Posted by echappist

funny that one so highly trained in one area of the sciences can be so irreverently glib when it comes to other areas. And do please spare us of what your conscience does or doesn't allow you to do. You want to conserve, fine; you feel it's too inconvenient, fine, but spare of us your "conscience" causing you to reflexively dismiss scientific reports. It's just your solipsism in action.

the whole climate change "debate" is well settled in just about every other developed country, including those of conservative political persuasions. Of course, whether conservative leaning politicians do anything of substance is another fact altogether, but at least they don't deny it.

that said, you are right about the "salvation of $100k all electric cars". Unless the electricity is recharged using hydro, wind, nuclear (horrors, /s), it's just a less direct way of burning of fossil fuel or coal



well said and cogent

I'm far from Solipsistic, I'm just not convinced. I love science, I love knowledge, I love learning, and I value education, but in this case You can't prove it. Get me an independently written scientific paper of merit that proves it is not just a "next earth cycle" warming and I'll consider it. Until then, I'm unconvinced.

Thanks for the Carlin quote, BTW. Carlin was brilliant. I had the pleasure of hearing that bastard live a few months before he died.

[makoti]

Originally Posted by Tickdoc

I heard all trees would vanish from the planet when I was about 10yoa. At the time I loved to draw and I asked for paper for my birthday present because I was so scared of losing all the trees and not having paper. It never occurred to me that the loss of toilet paper would have posed a much greater hardship if that disastrous scenario had occurred.

That galvanized my distrust of scientific reports and data and also led to my disbelief that we are causing any of this warming. The planet is warming because that what it do. We are in that cycle and it will cool and warm and cool and warm again ad infinitum.

I'm going to drink through plastic straws and wear nitrile gloves while wiping myself with the best damn products I can find.

Recycle, reuse (well, not the wipes, and conserve when you can. I love the thought of harnessing power from your best available resources whatever they may be, but I am thoroughly unconvinced that this fear mongering is the proper use of science. The salvation of $100k all electric cars does not help anything. It does nothing to minimize the ecological deficit it provides. You just can't convince me otherwise.

I realize I am in the minority here, but my conscience can't allow me to believe things that are unproven or illogical. I am terrible at maths but this math just doesn't work for me.

Jesus.
Did your 25/45/65 y/o self ever stop to wonder why the trees DIDN'T disappear? Perhaps because people realized the direction things were headed and made changes? I'm quite sure if the 10 y/o version of you had really listened, he would have heard the phrase "At current rates". At one time, this was true. We clear cut with abandon. Now, we still cut way too many trees so you can continue to wipe your selfish butt with the softest paper, but we at least try to manage how we do it. We try to reach a balance. We make an effort. We are failing, but we continue to try. Most of us, anyway.
I'm sorry the maths don't work for you. They work fine for 95% of scientists, and every developed country save the US. Perhaps it's time you checked your work a bit more closely.

[Ozz]

This was an interesting series to watch....like most History Channel shows, they could get to the point in 10 minutes but they drag it out for 30....

https://www.history.com/shows/doomsd...world-will-end

BTW - Love the George Carlin quote....heard that years ago...he did sum it up nicely.

[pdonk]

Someone else posted recently, better to have lots of people doing a bit then a few people being perfect.

What I am trying to do:

Use the train/public transit to get to ride locations / ride out/train home.
Reusable lunch tubs.
Buy as much locally grown food as possible. - Eat in season.
Not introducing my daughter to straws.
Reusable shopping bags.
Keep house a bit cooler in winter. Can't win warmer in summer argument though.


Mea culpa things

CO2 cartridges and new tubes after a flat
Ride food/drinks
My daughter obsesses about paper towel - she'll grow out of it.
Not car pooling to work with my wife, even though we work less than a mile from eachother.
Not taking transit to work - even though the subway is a mile from my office - the first and last miles are hell, plus it takes 40 minutes more than driving
Plastic wrap and bags.