For comment: "Why It's Impossible For Steel Frames To Be More Comfortable..."

[Dino Suegiù]

So now frame inserts are part of the equation/discussion?

Why be beat, then?

I mean, YBB.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by Dino Suegiù

So now frame inserts are part of the equation/discussion?

Why be beat, then?

I mean, YBB.

Adding inserts and pivots to provide comfort is giving up on the idea that comfort can come from frame material alone.

[Dino Suegiù]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

Adding inserts and pivots to provide comfort is giving up on the idea that comfort can come from frame material alone.

Obviously.

[benb]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

Absolutely. Specialized used to have their Zertz elastomer inserts imbedded in frames, but these mostly a joke. In order for the Zertz to absorb shock, the frame would have to flex enough to squish the Zertz. But the frame is so rigid that the Zertz inserts could never be compressed enough to absorb anything. Image a car suspension with a coil spring and a shock absorber in parallel. Now replace the spring with a solid rigid cylinder. Do you think that the shock absorber would be absorber much shock, now that it could no longer be compressed? That's kind of like how the Zertz inserts were.

Some bike manufacturers are finally now giving up on the charade that standard diamond frames provide any meaningful compliance and comfort, and when compliance is desired, are now building in pivots and "spring" members to provide meaningful deflections.

For some reason I was thinking the Roubaix had something more like the Domane now... I might be misremembering.

I have a Domane.. it has more flex in the beam than the tires that would fit on the frame. It is really not the same thing as a fully rigid frame at all.

I test rode a few bikes with the Zertz and it seems like they weren't doing much more than what Carbon already did with the way it mutes high frequency vibration.

[reuben]

Originally Posted by dino suegiù

maybe you are shopping at the wrong armor shops then, because the latest consensus on this thread, if am following, seems to be that steel frames are indeed more comfortable if one wears an untucked shirt, semi-skinny jeans, and vans shoes aka "modern armor, but super comfy too!"? (the chamois is still an unknown, though, and so you do make a very salient point regarding that.)

but from what i have gathered so far, the only thing separating that fellow from absolute comfort-nirvana, or as close as one can get to that transcendent state, is that his bike is not also yellow. Imagine his dismay when he reads this thread....

[NHAero]

It seems that the engineers in this thread seem to all agree:
- that the frame is not a factor in comfort because it deflects so little
- that other components with much lower spring rates comprise the bulk of the deflection
- that different damping characteristics are irrelevant if deflection is de minimis

Do we also agree that a frame can be designed from any of the common materials with similar vertical stiffness, such that built up with the same wheels, tires, saddle, seatpost, bar tape, etc., and with the same fork, the deflection at the contact points will be the same?

Originally Posted by Mark McM

Hey, that's a really awesome video! It clearly shows that the fork is flexing (and that the rest of the frame really isn't - especially the rear triangle).

This is going off topic a bit, but -

To my eye, the thing that stands out the most is that it sort of looks like the fork is "pivoting" forward and back at the headset/crown, almost as if there was "hinge" there As the fork blades flex forward and back, there is very little change in the actual shape of the blades. This illustrates something that I keep saying - in most cases the majority of the flex in a fork is in the steerer, (plus a smaller bit at the crown and the tops of the legs), but that the curve in the lower part of the fork adds very little to fork flex.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by benb

For some reason I was thinking the Roubaix had something more like the Domane now... I might be misremembering.

The current Roubaix has their Future Shock in the front, which is a telescoping shock absorber built into the top of the steerer tube (they claim 20mm of travel). It also features a freely flexing seatpost, a little bit like, but not quite the same as, the Domane's

[reuben]

Originally Posted by weisan

.

No fair, no fair! It's not a diamond, parallelogram, tetrahedron, or rhombus!

(Y'all done gone hog crazy! Love it.)

[benb]

I really would like to try one of those Jones bikes just cause:

- He has an interesting take on frame geometry
- His solution is incredibly simple compared to most modern MTBs.

It is really elegant if your riding matches up... the bike has no oil seals, air chambers, etc.. to fail. He seems to "go big" way more than I do on those bikes without trouble.

On the flipside it certainly has a lot of welds.

I'm getting close to needing a new MTB after riding the same one for 15 years... I have F/S right now but really don't want to pay for another one.

Too bad I live about as far away from Jones as possible..

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by NHAero

Do we also agree that a frame can be designed from any of the common materials with similar vertical stiffness, such that built up with the same wheels, tires, saddle, seatpost, bar tape, etc., and with the same fork, the deflection at the contact points will be the same?

I don't see why not. It might require different diameters/wall thicknesses/etc., and you may end up with frames of different weights, but it should be do-able. (Actually, if tweek enough variables, you can probably achieve equal weights, too, if you use the densist material for the target weight.)

[vincenz]

Originally Posted by martl

It is the purpose of science to find the laws behind the perception. There are many things still not fully researched/understood (ask the brilliant people at CERN or at NASA) but somehow I don't think strain of a comparably simple structure like a bicycle on a bumpy road is one of them.
The physics behind that are rather well known and proven.


I owned and rode bikes made of oversized aluminum, lugged and tig welded steel, and a Moots over the years, even a battered Alan, but let's keep that one out . Some I liked better than others. All rode differently. None was more or less comfortable than the others due to the properties of the material used. I'm pretty sure I could tell a nice Veloflex tubular from a Vittoria Rally by the quality of the ride, though.

Well there’s the thing about science also— it doesn’t know what it doesn’t know until it’s known. I would agree bicycle minutiae is pretty worthless to study in the larger scheme of things, so.. maybe someone else can come along sometime and contribute with an acceptable scientific approach for this that’s not a front for begging for donations. In any case, there being a slight deflection in the frame means it is still measurable and what’s measurable is still a place to start to describe the differences that some people feel.

[Spinner]

So, in light of this thread, any thoughts about Serotta tubing and frame flex?

BTW, some years ago I had the opportunity to ride DBRK's Terraplane for over 50 miles and I could definitely feel the difference in the ride, especially when making 90 degree turns.

[Bob Ross]

Originally Posted by benb

I really would like to try one of those Jones bikes just cause...the bike has no oil seals, air chambers, etc.. to fail.

I am so going to get a Jones Spaceframe with truss fork long before I ever get a traditional [sic] full-squish MTB for precisely that reason! The first time I read an article about suspensions and realized I would have to learn about bob and squat and sag and preload and rebound and lockout and travel was the day I decided that I just wanted to ride a freakin' bike!

[jamesdak]

Originally Posted by Spinner

So, in light of this thread, any thoughts about Serotta tubing and frame flex?

BTW, some years ago I had the opportunity to ride DBRK's Terraplane for over 50 miles and I could definitely feel the difference in the ride, especially when making 90 degree turns.

As in staying more planted in the turn or what? I've been lusting after one of Dave's bikes for years.

[Spinner]

Originally Posted by jamesdak

As in staying more planted in the turn or what? I've been lusting after one of Dave's bikes for years.

Yes, more planted. It was like carving a turn in skiing.