OT: An Italy just for Italians?

[ciclista_tifoso]

Originally Posted by makoti

I'm actually doing this. Or, more accurately, a nephew is doing it for me. Grandfather way back died while still an Italian citizen, so I have a direct link. It's not a quick process, to be sure. Would love an EU passport.

I'm planning to do the same as well [obtain Italian citizenship]. I'm first-generation American (my father was born an raised in Italy, then lived his teen years in Argentina before eventually heading to the U.S. after marriage). I understand, however, that I may not qualify as my father later obtained U.S. citizenship, which may have involved him revoking his Italian citizenship. I'll need to confirm that, though. Maybe it's moot since his father never came to the U.S.

[on edit: I see there were a few additional replies on citizenship -- will aim to find out for myself]



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[zzy]

Venice is already Disneyland and faces a very hard decision of they are going to save their city while it literally sinks into the lagoon. The massive about of $$ required to rebuild the wooden staves isn't coming from the gov't and it ain't coming from the local industry. Parts of San Marco square and the Doge's palace is already under a foot of water on a bad day.

[Dino Suegiù]

Originally Posted by Tickdoc

Great grandmother was 18? when she came in 1895.

That might be very difficult. You would be claiming Italian citizenship via maternal jus sanguinis (citizenship via bloodline), via a great-grandmother who may have given up her Italian citizenship upon entering the US, who died circa 1945(?), and who possibly had no Italian (jus sanguinis) offspring after her arrival in USA?

Italian maternal jus sanguinis was not even codified until 1948 (paternal jus sanguinis was codified in 1912).

It may be very difficult for you to claim citizenship, but only your local Italian consulate can answer you precisely. Do not waste time researching other opinions, as the decision will entirely and only be theirs to review and approve or deny.

Originally Posted by ciclista_tifoso

I'm planning to do the same as well [obtain Italian citizenship]. I'm first-generation American (my father was born an raised in Italy, then lived his teen years in Argentina before eventually heading to the U.S. after marriage). I understand, however, that I may not qualify as my father later obtained U.S. citizenship, which may have involved him revoking his Italian citizenship. I'll need to confirm that, though. Maybe it's moot since his father never came to the U.S.

I think your case would have far more possibility for approval than Tickdoc's: you would be claiming paternal jus sanguinis (and your father was Italian by both jus sanguinis (citizenship by bloodline) and jus soli (citizenship by birthplace). My understanding is that whether or not your father at some point renounced his Italian citizenship has no bearing at all on your right to claim your Italian jus sanguinis citizenship.

Again, however: the opinion/determination of your local Italian consulate is the only opinion that actually obtains; there is no going around those channels.

[ciclista_tifoso]

^^^^^^^^^

Very helpful - appreciate this insight.


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[Dino Suegiù]

Originally Posted by zzy

Venice is already Disneyland and faces a very hard decision of they are going to save their city while it literally sinks into the lagoon. The massive about of $$ required to rebuild the wooden staves isn't coming from the gov't and it ain't coming from the local industry. Parts of San Marco square and the Doge's palace is already under a foot of water on a bad day.

Parts of this statement are not accurate, sorry. Venice is not remotely Disneyland, that is really a cliché. High water has been an issue for centuries (the first recorded event was documented in the year 782 AD, with rain-caused floods documented long before that), exacerbated for decades because of "modern" factors, and in fact there is (a lot of) money from Italian national, regional and local governments, and worldwide as well as Italian industry/donations. Unfortunately money siphons are also more effective than tidal siphons.

Tomorrow a rare, very unseasonable high water of ~120cm is predicted, sadly. It will likely last a few hours, not for days as in worse, seasonal events. The record (in high season (Sept-Jan) is 194cm (1966), with all but the two worst events rising to peaks between ~140cm and ~165cm.

One day Venice may indeed either sink or else be unrecognizable in its "salvation", as will parts of Florida, the Netherlands, etc. The city is not disappearing any time soon, regardless.

[Dino Suegiù]

Originally Posted by ciclista_tifoso

^^^^^^^^^
Very helpful - appreciate this insight.

Good luck!

(Contact the local consulate, really. They operate like independent, often very arrogant, fiefdoms, and nothing anyone not directly connected (ie a consulate employee) tells you about your case will matter one bit, it really will not.)

[Tickdoc]

Originally Posted by Dino Suegiù

That might be very difficult. You would be claiming Italian citizenship via maternal jus sanguinis (citizenship via bloodline), via a great-grandmother who may have given up her Italian citizenship upon entering the US, who died circa 1945(?), and who possibly had no Italian (jus sanguinis) offspring after her arrival in USA?

Italian maternal jus sanguinis was not even codified until 1948 (paternal jus sanguinis was codified in 1912).

It may be very difficult for you to claim citizenship, but only your local Italian consulate can answer you precisely. Do not waste time researching other opinions, as the decision will entirely and only be theirs to review and approve or deny.


I think your case would have far more possibility for approval than Tickdoc's: you would be claiming paternal jus sanguinis (and your father was Italian by both jus sanguinis (citizenship by bloodline) and jus soli (citizenship by birthplace). My understanding is that whether or not your father at some point renounced his Italian citizenship has no bearing at all on your right to claim your Italian jus sanguinis citizenship.

Again, however: the opinion/determination of your local Italian consulate is the only opinion that actually obtains; there is no going around those channels.

Well, hang on. Both great grandparents were Italian. I’ll need to get the specifics from a cousin but she came at request of my great grandfather(also Italian) who was already here. He died fairly young (black lung) and she remarried. I’m not sure if either ever became citizens though. Quite certain he did not before his death. I need to do some research. I know my parents found the birth certificates for them from their hometown (fabriano). Now I’m really intrigued.

[Coffee Rider]

Originally Posted by zzy

Venice is already Disneyland and faces a very hard decision of they are going to save their city while it literally sinks into the lagoon. The massive about of $$ required to rebuild the wooden staves isn't coming from the gov't and it ain't coming from the local industry. Parts of San Marco square and the Doge's palace is already under a foot of water on a bad day.

When I was in Venice, it was more crowded than a day at Disneyland after it's so crowded that they stop letting people in.

[Dino Suegiù]

Originally Posted by Tickdoc

Well, hang on. Both great grandparents were Italian. I’ll need to get the specifics from a cousin but she came at request of my great grandfather(also Italian) who was already here. He died fairly young (black lung) and she remarried. I’m not sure if either ever became citizens though. Quite certain he did not before his death. I need to do some research. I know my parents found the birth certificates for them from their hometown (fabriano). Now I’m really intrigued.

I am not trying to dissuade you at all, only pointing out some essential facts. Both great-grandparents being Italian-born (with birth certificates you possess) may help, but the dates of their immigration predate even the paternal law of 1912, so if they gave up their Italian citizenship on Ellis Island or other, and no awarded claims of citizenship obtained since then, it may be difficult, that's all.

Again: only the consulate will determine your case, so I will not speculate on their possible replies.

Fabriano is a very beautiful town.

[zzy]

Originally Posted by Dino Suegiù

Parts of this statement are not accurate, sorry. Venice is not remotely Disneyland, that is really a cliché.

An exaggeration sure, but Venice's entire economy revolves around tourism and it is presently being rocked by the cornavirus, worse than anywhere in Italy.

High water has been an issue for centuries (the first recorded event was documented in the year 782 AD, with rain-caused floods documented long before that), exacerbated for decades because of "modern" factors, and in fact there is (a lot of) money from Italian national, regional and local governments, and worldwide as well as Italian industry/donations. Unfortunately money siphons are also more effective than tidal siphons.

No one is saying that acqua alta is a new thing. Rather Venice is getting destroyed by a massive increase in heavy motor boat traffic, digging out of the lagoon to support modern freight vessels and tourist cruises, global warming, and massive increases in tourist traffic. Often the tides recede so far that the staves the city is built on become aerated and begin to rot. And parts of Venice are sinking, whether people want to admit it or not. As much as 9" or 23cm according to some.

Tomorrow a rare, very unseasonable high water of ~120cm is predicted, sadly. It will likely last a few hours, not for days as in worse, seasonal events. The record (in high season (Sept-Jan) is 194cm (1966), with all but the two worst events rising to peaks between ~140cm and ~165cm.

These "very rare" tides have been happening with increasing frequency over the last 30 years, especially lately.

One day Venice may indeed either sink or else be unrecognizable in its "salvation", as will parts of Florida, the Netherlands, etc. The city is not disappearing any time soon, regardless.

The Dutch have been at war with the sea for hundreds of years, highly successfully. The total catastrophe that has been the construction of the MOSE project says it all. And Italy is increasingly in economic catastrophe, to the point that Florence is suggesting to use its cultural sites like the Uffizi as collateral for its ever increasing debt. If you think a government bailout is coming you're mistaken.

I love Venice, and Italy, but it is facing some VERY hard choices and the city becomes more expensive and hollows out. More and more, it is becoming a tourist oriented economy. Because there is no alternative.

[9tubes]

Originally Posted by Coffee Rider

When I was in Venice, it was more crowded than a day at Disneyland after it's so crowded that they stop letting people in.

Yes, but Venice is easy. Nearly all the tourists do a mass parade from the train station / cruise terminal to Piazza San Marco and back, and little else. Just turn left or right and go a few blocks and you can find neighborhoods with only the locals around.

[rzthomas]

Originally Posted by makoti

I'm actually doing this. Or, more accurately, a nephew is doing it for me. Grandfather way back died while still an Italian citizen, so I have a direct link. It's not a quick process, to be sure. Would love an EU passport.

I went through this process and now have dual citizenship. Holler if you have any questions.

[vav]

M i g a !!

[makoti]

Originally Posted by ciclista_tifoso

I'm planning to do the same as well [obtain Italian citizenship]. I'm first-generation American (my father was born an raised in Italy, then lived his teen years in Argentina before eventually heading to the U.S. after marriage). I understand, however, that I may not qualify as my father later obtained U.S. citizenship, which may have involved him revoking his Italian citizenship. I'll need to confirm that, though. Maybe it's moot since his father never came to the U.S.

[on edit: I see there were a few additional replies on citizenship -- will aim to find out for myself]



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It's possible to hold dual citizenship, but I don't know if new citizens can do that. That's a good question. Good luck!

[makoti]

Originally Posted by rzthomas

I went through this process and now have dual citizenship. Holler if you have any questions.

Thanks. I think were in the home stretch. Papers from Italy, validated with the State Dept, sent back to Italy... now we just wait, I think.