Cat IVs with coaches

[Tandem Rider]

Coaches are a great idea, on-line coaches for a Cat4 are a bad idea. A good coach does a heckuva lot more than help you put up increasingly better numbers on the old watt meter. An on-line coach can't help you with riding safely in a race, position on the bike, positioning in the pack, how to race in a pack, how to race in the wind, how and when to create a break, how to sprint, etc. but a good local coach can.

[GregL]

A friend and former teammate became a coach over the past few years. I'm very, very impressed by his curricula. He not only coaches fitness (specific to your chosen cycling discipline), but holds multiple clinics that focus on riding skills (pack riding, pacelines, bump drills, sprint drills, cyclocross skills, etc...). I've suggested his clinics to non-racers who would like to improve their bike handling skills. He has invested heavily in his own training, attending multiple camps, seminars, and training sessions to make him a better coach. His riders are very happy with the fitness and skills they have gained. Those who berate coaching may be missing out on something very beneficial.

Greg

[charliedid]

Doh!

I never saw (ONLINE) coaches.

I might have to change my tune based on that, but otherwise...

[avalonracing]

I find that most of the people who are being called coaches are actually trainers as they are telling them how to train for performance instead of how to actually race (and even ride) well.

I used to actually coach my less experienced racers on my team (I even went through USCF to get the certificate just for kicks) but I let another guy on the team do the training programs for them.

In our current days of Zwift addicts, coaches who teach people how to actually ride and race in a group are more important than ever. I keep seeing all these guys who are super-fit from hundreds of hours of riding a smart-trainer in front of their TV, yet have lousy skills in a group. They are like bottle rockets... all power and no control.

[chiasticon]

Masters Cat 4's with coaches are the main thing that's silly, to me. a junior though? totally fine.

but whatever... people enjoy bikes in different ways and when time is limited, having someone to tell you how best to utilize it to meet your goals isn't the end of the world.

[.RJ]

Originally Posted by avalonracing

They are like bottle rockets... all power and no control.

I lol'd

[FlashUNC]

Paceline: Where we argue that the latest aero/weightweenie equipment would just be offset by diet and a training plan, then we complain about those using outside coaching to create said training plan.

[echappist]

Originally Posted by steelbikerider

I'm one of those cat3/4/5 coaches.

Lots of new riders are clueless when it comes to proper training. Despite having all the gadgets and gear, they don't take/have the the time to study Friel or Allen and Coggan so they pay me to do it. It can take 2-3 years to truly understand how to train and how your body reacts to training. Most new guys just go out and ride as hard as they can for 1-3 hours and there aren't many people around here who can tell them otherwise. They also don't know how to ride easy or take recovery and rest weeks.

Since I have been racing and riding for over 40 years, I can look at their work schedules, training schedules, family obligations and race priorities and work out a schedule to optimize their training to match their priorities. I don't cost much more than an "A" race weekend.

I'm exhibit A of reading all that and still getting it wrong. Those books are quite descriptive, but some of the tenets contained therein are taken to be prescriptive. Add to that various other held beliefs (e.g. should road racers do any weight training) that people have (on slowtwitch and wattage forum), and pretty soon I got myself down the road of doing thing I want to do, not the things I need to do.

From perspective of watts sustained over a set duration, there isn't that much of a change before and after I had a coach (as a cat-4), but my race results would indicate otherwise. But more importantly, I trained myself ragged while doing things my own way (mentioned this in threads re: over-reaching/ over-training), and having a coach helped to curb some of the things that led to the over-reaching. Not even on things such as which workouts to do, but simpler stuff such as should build phase be 2-on 1-rest or 3-on 1-rest (my coach advocating for the former, I wanted the latter). I wanted the latter, b/c that's what people did on the fora and said in books, despite the fact that 2 weeks on build usually runs me ragged that I needed the more frequent rest week.

Come to think of it, I was completely un-coached when I was a runner, and I almost always managed to run myself injured or ragged while following self-made plans distilled from whatever I could glean online. Perhaps I'd have been more successful (and less injury-prone), had I had a running coach. But then again, I wouldn't have ventured into cycling, had that happened.

Some may say that self-coaching is all that is needed to reach cat-xyz. While that may be true, it's purely anecdotal, and no more persuasive than if I were to argue that most cat-4s need a coach, based on the rationale that I certainly did.

Also, there are tips on heat management (I primarily raced in Mabra-land, aka MD/VA in warm conditions), aerodynamics, etc. that I've found very helpful. As a former fattie who never fully shed most of the belly fat even when I was at my leanest (68 kg and 174 cm), all the other preparations gave me a leg up over the more fit competition.

Originally Posted by old fat man

I have no problem with amateurs signing up for coaching and if it gets more people out riding and racing, that's great. However I am concerned with how many "strong" amateurs have developed zero pack riding skills. Hitting the coaches targets on the trainer or while riding solo doesn't build pack skills.
Plenty of power, but not safe on the group ride or inside the pack in a crit. Wish the online coaching came with pack riding education too.

Agree with the sentiment, but that's rather irrelevant when it comes to goals of coaching and training plans.

Pack riding should be learned locally, in a group, via actual practicing. That's what a club is for.

Originally Posted by cash05458

Curious...what do most of these guys charge? What's sorta the average?

$125/month for twice a week review (all that I need right now). $195/month for weekly review

[joosttx]

Originally Posted by FlashUNC

Paceline: Where we argue that the latest aero/weightweenie equipment would just be offset by diet and a training plan, then we complain about those using outside coaching to create said training plan.

Paceline: just be mediocre. And dance with a banana which is mediocre.

[tctyres]

IMO, the best way to achieve your goals is to get help. That's what coaches are for. If you want a workout plan, get a workout coach. If you want better race results, find someone who can help you do that.

Originally Posted by joosttx

Paceline: just be mediocre. And dance with a banana which is mediocre.

Nothing mediocre about the banana!

[madsciencenow]

I'm not a racer and the thought of having a coach and training plans reminds me of days gone by when I was running marathons and on a plan to get ready for the next race. I didn't hate it at the time but the thought of doing it now makes me want to vomit. This said, I think that there is much that I could have learned back when I first started running and still could learn now if I was into racing.

The reason I don't have a coach, stick to a plan, or race is that I'm into riding to decompress and getaway. Having a training plan and a race to get ready for cramps my style and forces me to do a certain something on days when when my body/head is telling me something different. It's taken years to figure this out but after over doing it over and over again I've kinda landed on doing what I need to do when I want to do it. Does this mean I have it right? Nope, I'm perpetually over-trained and don't take nearly enough days off. A proper coach would be a huge asset but for what I want out of riding it doesn't make sense.

So does it make sense for a Cat IV rider to have a coach? I guess it depends on what they want out of riding but I can see how it could be an asset.

...it's a bit of a tangent as others have pointed out but I do agree, based on limited experience and what I'm hearing from my friends in other locations that bike riding skills and general self-awareness while on the bike are not what they should/could be to keep everyone safe.

[benb]

I've used a coach several times off and on and was technically a Cat 4 at the time. I say technically because I wasn't really pursuing the whole road racing USA cycling points rat race during that period, I signed up for temporary coaching when signing up for hard non-sanctioned events that in general were very very different/much harder than the stuff you'd do as a Cat 4 under typical USA cycling conditions.

I shot through Cat 5 very quickly while being pretty clueless. Was doing Cat 4 and probably would have gotten to Cat 3 while being clueless too. Plenty of natural talent, etc.. but I was really really dumb about training. In general I got into a massive rut of overtraining in my 20s.. constantly overtrained to the point I'd have massive burn out at some point in the season every year. I would go on REALLY hard rides like every weekend. Solo 50-70 miles with 4-5000 miles of climbing pretty regularly.

I did the whole USA cycling thing for about 2 and a half years and in general I thought the whole scene sucked pretty hard. But a coach would have helped me a lot. My experiences working with coaches has generally been that even remote they can give me advice that makes huge differences in my performance. BTW I was studying Friel, etc.. very carefully back in the early 2000s and it generally didn't work.. his books were great for someone who had a clue, if you were just young and dumb it wasn't really enough IMO to put all the pieces together. I'd say the books just didn't really give good enough background on how to build up training hours and such. His books really always gave me the impression I just needed to train more and more.

I don't get why there would be any disdain for someone who is actually racing and using a coach. The forum seems to require absolute respect for someone who doesn't train hard at all and yet obsesses over having the absolute best gear. Coaching isn't expensive compared to the crazy stable of bikes people have here and it can really help you get a lot more out of cycling. It also provides a way for ex-pros to make a living.

My more recent experiences working with a coach as of the last 3-4 years drastically overhauled the way I train. It was really helpful. Even I'm not racing it's a better way for me to train/ride.

I will never snicker at anyone who has a coach.. I save my snickering for guys (and it's always guys) who obsess over spending massive amounts on equipment but never seem to actually get in shape.

[makoti]

Originally Posted by FlashUNC

Paceline: Where we argue that the latest aero/weightweenie equipment would just be offset by diet and a training plan, then we complain about those using outside coaching to create said training plan.

This should go under the masthead

[bigbill]

I used a local coach in the early to mid 90's to progress from 4 to 2. I worked full days on my feet, had limited time to train, and needed a program to maximize my results based on my available time. It was better than "riding lots" and being burned out going into weekend events.

My cousin's son is a NFL quarterback, he has a coach.

[teleguy57]

Originally Posted by echappist

I'm exhibit A of reading all that and still getting it wrong.

....But more importantly, I trained myself ragged while doing things my own way (mentioned this in threads re: over-reaching/ over-training), and having a coach helped to curb some of the things that led to the over-reaching. Not even on things such as which workouts to do, but simpler stuff such as should build phase be 2-on 1-rest or 3-on 1-rest (my coach advocating for the former, I wanted the latter). I wanted the latter, b/c that's what people did on the fora and said in books, despite the fact that 2 weeks on build usually runs me ragged that I needed the more frequent rest week.

.... I almost always managed to run myself injured or ragged while following self-made plans distilled from whatever I could glean online.....Also, there are tips on heat management (I primarily raced in Mabra-land, aka MD/VA in warm conditions), aerodynamics, etc. that I've found very helpful. As a former fattie who never fully shed most of the belly fat even when I was at my leanest (68 kg and 174 cm), all the other preparations gave me a leg up over the more fit competition.

Excerpted from your post, but I agree with everything here (and represent most of it, except the "former" part of "former fattie."

And thank you for using fora!