Jan Heine on wide tires for the road

[AngryScientist]

https://www.renehersecycles.com/too-...e-a-road-test/

Even though I generally disagree with all of his conclusions, I have a lot of respect for the man. He's a super strong rider. I wish I was in the form to take on a ride like this. Looks beautiful too. Motivational to say the least, who cares about the tires

[lorenbike]

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[marciero]

Originally Posted by Loren090

I would love if RH open source published their tire testing data though. There has been a push for this in the sciences. With how much misleading info there is in the bike industry, I've always been sort of surprised to read past RH blog comments about not posting the data. Why not take this a step further and be fully transparent?

More than the data, the methods and the code used to do the analysis. In Jan's case these are very simple methods that for the most part have been described in BQ and elsewhere. But from what I have seen of the criticisms here, having the data and the code and producing the exact same results would not satisfy people that have accused him of making things up, fudging the data, etc, or, in more charitable cases, of having bad data due to poor collection methods. Plus, I can see some reasons for a for-profit entity to protect their data as they would any other proprietary asset. For profits dont generally do this, and when they do make data available it is sold as a product. Also, in Jan's case, with abuse and misuse of statistics pervasive even among professional scientists, why turn internet trolls armed with excel spreadsheets lose on your data? I dont see an up side.

[fourflys]

Originally Posted by marciero

More than the data, the methods and the code used to do the analysis. In Jan's case these are very simple methods that for the most part have been described in BQ and elsewhere. But from what I have seen of the criticisms here, having the data and the code and producing the exact same results would not satisfy people that have accused him of making things up, fudging the data, etc, or, in more charitable cases, of having bad data due to poor collection methods. Plus, I can see some reasons for a for-profit entity to protect their data as they would any other proprietary asset. For profits dont generally do this, and when they do make data available it is sold as a product. Also, in Jan's case, with abuse and misuse of statistics pervasive even among professional scientists, why turn internet trolls armed with excel spreadsheets lose on your data? I dont see an up side.

^this!! Either you enjoy reading Jan's stuff, appreciate his reviews and testing, or you don't.. I appreciate that he tries to test a product in a real-world environment and I feel he does his best to provide true results based on as scientific a method as you can in a non-research-funded, real world scenario..

[witcombusa]

Originally Posted by fourflys

^this!! Either you enjoy reading Jan's stuff, appreciate his reviews and testing, or you don't.. I appreciate that he tries to test a product in a real-world environment and I feel he does his best to provide true results based on as scientific a method as you can in a non-research-funded, real world scenario..

Jan must be an acquired taste for some but it doesn't work for me. Much of his writing is simply biased self promotion of his brand. So I try to take it with a grain of salt if I must.

The wide tire thing is so reminiscent of what's been going on in the ski world too. You are (trying) to create a new market to sell stuff. They already have other stuff but now they need THIS stuff. And it goes too far and actually can be less useful at the extremes. You don't want a 106mm underfoot ski in most New England conditions any more than you need 48mm tires on the pave.

[saab2000]

I applaud him for being his own person and making few, if any, apologies.

I wish I were motivated for a 400 km ride. Looks awesome.

Tires are a side show. I enjoyed the article.

[Ozz]

Originally Posted by saab2000

I applaud him for being his own person and making few, if any, apologies.

I wish I were motivated for a 400 km ride. Looks awesome.

Tires are a side show. I enjoyed the article.

That is some gorgeous country.....I grew up near there and did lots of hiking in that area. There is a town they pass (Oso) thru at about mile 18 that was nearly wiped off the map by a landslide back in 2014....

I might have to try the loop and make the turn at Marblemount....avoid the big climb! :-)

[spoonrobot]

Originally Posted by marciero

More than the data, the methods and the code used to do the analysis. In Jan's case these are very simple methods that for the most part have been described in BQ and elsewhere. But from what I have seen of the criticisms here, having the data and the code and producing the exact same results would not satisfy people that have accused him of making things up, fudging the data, etc, or, in more charitable cases, of having bad data due to poor collection methods. Plus, I can see some reasons for a for-profit entity to protect their data as they would any other proprietary asset. For profits dont generally do this, and when they do make data available it is sold as a product. Also, in Jan's case, with abuse and misuse of statistics pervasive even among professional scientists, why turn internet trolls armed with excel spreadsheets lose on your data? I dont see an up side.

I try not to comment much on the Heine stuff because at this point it's obvious he gave up scientific credibility to sell product. Classic marketing methodology, boost the signals that align with your product, denigrate and dismiss those that don't.

His "experiments" (more generally studies) have not reliably replicated when performed by others. Rolldown tests have almost always favored narrower tires, his aero testing was debunked by multiple people, and the most damning result - almost nobody interested in riding far, fast, and in comfort is using his ideas. He's had to pivot to gravel racers to move product - road, triathlon, MTB, randonneurs, ultra-distance - by and large have found his ideas do not generalize to their riding style. Which begs the question, why the huge discrepancy between the Bicycle Quarterly Rene Herse laboratory with 1 tester, 1 statistician, and no peer review - and the laboratory of the open road with thousands upon thousands of testers?

The only people that ever win races on Rene Herse tires are using the same width as the rest of the field, and are only ever winning off road races? What means?

[fourflys]

Originally Posted by spoonrobot

He's had to pivot to gravel racers to move product - road, triathlon, MTB, randonneurs, ultra-distance - by and large have found his ideas do not generalize to their riding style.

so, there seems to be quite a few on this thread that like Jan's products about as equally as those that don't.. so not really sure where you got your data from.. also, some of the most recent FKT ultra distance on been on RH tires.. agree, not a lot of crit racers riding RH tires, but not real sure that's his demographic..

[spoonrobot]

Originally Posted by fourflys

so, there seems to be quite a few on this thread that like Jan's products about as equally as those that don't.. so not really sure where you got your data from.. also, some of the most recent FKT ultra distance on been on RH tires.. agree, not a lot of crit racers riding RH tires, but not real sure that's his demographic..

How many paved course FKT? How many FKT on tires wider than the rest of the field?

I’ll answer because I looked last year; 0 and 0.

The tires are great, they’re also not nearly as fast as the marketing leads one to believe, the pseudoscience surrounding them is a joke.

[fourflys]

Originally Posted by spoonrobot

How many paved course FKT? How many FKT on tires wider than the rest of the field?

I’ll answer because I looked last year; 0 and 0.

The tires are great, they’re also not nearly as fast as the marketing leads one to believe, the pseudoscience surrounding them is a joke.

so is there such a thing as an FKT for a paved course? I ask in all seriousness because I googled "road FKT cycling" and "paved course FKT cycling" (had to add cycling as FKT is a running thing too it looks like) and didn't really find anything that wasn't gravel or a trail..

[spoonrobot]

Originally Posted by fourflys

so is there such a thing as an FKT for a paved course? I ask in all seriousness because I googled "road FKT cycling" and paved course FKT cycling" (had to add cycling as FKT is a running thing too it looks like) and didn't really find anything that wasn't gravel or a trail..

Transam, Transcon, LEJOG, LEL, RAAM, PBP, etc. etc. - nobody serious uses much wider tires than you'd expect - 28s maybe 30s are the max.

FKT is the market differentiation term for "course record" so bikepacking racers could have their own thing too.

Interesting side note; the wider Heine's tires have gotten, the slower his PBP times have become, his fastest time being on 700cx30mm tires.

[palincss]

Originally Posted by spoonrobot

Interesting side note; the wider Heine's tires have gotten, the slower his PBP times have become, his fastest time being on 700cx30mm tires.

And the older he has gotten, too. You think just possibly that might have something to do with it?

[spoonrobot]

Originally Posted by palincss

And the older he has gotten, too. You think just possibly that might have something to do with it?

No. We know from much research on the topic; the ability to finish long distance events consistently at high speed isn't predicated on age. Scott Dickson, Roger Baumann, and many others are examples. Jan's speed delta is well within a statistically significant probability wrt his tires, given the wealth of information about his bike, fitness, riding style, etc.

In 2019 he was probably in the best shape of his life, with the best bike and tires, no off-bike issues, good control discipline, and had a significant amount of time drafting a hot tandem - but still came in significantly slower than his narrow tire time.

The differences once he went to larger tires are easily quantified by the available data on aero, hysteresis losses, and weight increases from larger tires.

Worse in what way?

It's the equivalent of huffing paint.

[lavi]

We hobbyists like to overthink everything and then pound said topic deep into the ground.

I don't know for sure, but following Ted King's Insta, pretty sure dude rolls 32s/35s all the time. He surely has access to RH 26s and 28s...but I don't think I've seen those on his bikes. But what the hell do ex Pro Tour riders know about going fast anyhow?

For me, 32s are the new 28s...which were the new 25s.