Jan Heine on wide tires for the road

[lavi]

I love this place...so much grumping about. AND, I love my RH tires all of them: 28s, 32s, 35s, 650/42, 26"/2.3 (rat trap pass). IDK about speed. I care about CUSH(ion).

Pretty much all of us are considered kooks by "normal", football watching, beer swilling, pig skin eating, chubs. So I embrace the fact that no matter how fast or slow, no matter how great my kit is or if my ass is showing through threadbare spandex....that I look like the biggest geek to most folks that encounter me out on the road.

But ya, the "test" of the Peg Love #3 was a frigging travesty of the highest order. Jaine should publicly apologize for that fiasco.

[witcombusa]

Originally Posted by fourflys

^this!! Either you enjoy reading Jan's stuff, appreciate his reviews and testing, or you don't.. I appreciate that he tries to test a product in a real-world environment and I feel he does his best to provide true results based on as scientific a method as you can in a non-research-funded, real world scenario..

Jan must be an acquired taste for some but it doesn't work for me. Much of his writing is simply biased self promotion of his brand. So I try to take it with a grain of salt if I must.

The wide tire thing is so reminiscent of what's been going on in the ski world too. You are (trying) to create a new market to sell stuff. They already have other stuff but now they need THIS stuff. And it goes too far and actually can be less useful at the extremes. You don't want a 106mm underfoot ski in most New England conditions any more than you need 48mm tires on the pave.

[saab2000]

I applaud him for being his own person and making few, if any, apologies.

I wish I were motivated for a 400 km ride. Looks awesome.

Tires are a side show. I enjoyed the article.

[spoonrobot]

Originally Posted by marciero

More than the data, the methods and the code used to do the analysis. In Jan's case these are very simple methods that for the most part have been described in BQ and elsewhere. But from what I have seen of the criticisms here, having the data and the code and producing the exact same results would not satisfy people that have accused him of making things up, fudging the data, etc, or, in more charitable cases, of having bad data due to poor collection methods. Plus, I can see some reasons for a for-profit entity to protect their data as they would any other proprietary asset. For profits dont generally do this, and when they do make data available it is sold as a product. Also, in Jan's case, with abuse and misuse of statistics pervasive even among professional scientists, why turn internet trolls armed with excel spreadsheets lose on your data? I dont see an up side.

I try not to comment much on the Heine stuff because at this point it's obvious he gave up scientific credibility to sell product. Classic marketing methodology, boost the signals that align with your product, denigrate and dismiss those that don't.

His "experiments" (more generally studies) have not reliably replicated when performed by others. Rolldown tests have almost always favored narrower tires, his aero testing was debunked by multiple people, and the most damning result - almost nobody interested in riding far, fast, and in comfort is using his ideas. He's had to pivot to gravel racers to move product - road, triathlon, MTB, randonneurs, ultra-distance - by and large have found his ideas do not generalize to their riding style. Which begs the question, why the huge discrepancy between the Bicycle Quarterly Rene Herse laboratory with 1 tester, 1 statistician, and no peer review - and the laboratory of the open road with thousands upon thousands of testers?

The only people that ever win races on Rene Herse tires are using the same width as the rest of the field, and are only ever winning off road races? What means?

[rice rocket]

Originally Posted by lavi

IDK about speed. I care about CUSH(ion).

What's your limit? 50mm? 70mm?


Maybe 115mm?

[Ozz]

Originally Posted by saab2000

I applaud him for being his own person and making few, if any, apologies.

I wish I were motivated for a 400 km ride. Looks awesome.

Tires are a side show. I enjoyed the article.

That is some gorgeous country.....I grew up near there and did lots of hiking in that area. There is a town they pass (Oso) thru at about mile 18 that was nearly wiped off the map by a landslide back in 2014....

I might have to try the loop and make the turn at Marblemount....avoid the big climb! :-)

[charliedid]

Originally Posted by marciero

More than the data, the methods and the code used to do the analysis. In Jan's case these are very simple methods that for the most part have been described in BQ and elsewhere. But from what I have seen of the criticisms here, having the data and the code and producing the exact same results would not satisfy people that have accused him of making things up, fudging the data, etc, or, in more charitable cases, of having bad data due to poor collection methods. Plus, I can see some reasons for a for-profit entity to protect their data as they would any other proprietary asset. For profits dont generally do this, and when they do make data available it is sold as a product. Also, in Jan's case, with abuse and misuse of statistics pervasive even among professional scientists, why turn internet trolls armed with excel spreadsheets lose on your data? I dont see an up side.

He doesn't and probably shouldn't publish for the reasons stated, and doesn't need to for the sake of telling his story and marketing. I think most people are in on the idea that 23mm and 110 PSI is out the window.

That said his stories and evidence is enough to whip the place up into a tiny frenzy. It works, and he makes and sells his niche products.

No harm really.

[ryker]

Originally Posted by palincss

No, it's a bike he reviewed years ago, and did not like. Across the Hall they did not like his review at all, and publicly lynched him. They even immortalized the thread as one of their finest for a while, but I don't see that "greatest discussions ever" forum anymore.

https://www.velocipedesalon.com/foru...3-a-15832.html

[RWL2222]

BITD, was there any evidence put forward to support the rationale for skinny tires at high pressures--rolling resistance, and, err...what else was there actually?

[charliedid]

Originally Posted by RWL2222

BITD, was there any evidence put forward to support the rationale for skinny tires at high pressures--rolling resistance, and, err...what else was there actually?

Nah....just good stories and tires to sell

[dana_e]

and carbon

[spoonrobot]

TBF this is way worse than the Pegoretti

[fourflys]

Originally Posted by spoonrobot

He's had to pivot to gravel racers to move product - road, triathlon, MTB, randonneurs, ultra-distance - by and large have found his ideas do not generalize to their riding style.

so, there seems to be quite a few on this thread that like Jan's products about as equally as those that don't.. so not really sure where you got your data from.. also, some of the most recent FKT ultra distance on been on RH tires.. agree, not a lot of crit racers riding RH tires, but not real sure that's his demographic..

[fourflys]

Originally Posted by lavi

But ya, the "test" of the Peg Love #3 was a frigging travesty of the highest order. Jaine should publicly apologize for that fiasco.

I don't remember the article, but I just don't get the unquestioning love for Pegs.. I'm sure they're nice bikes, but folks treat them like a mythical beast.. not sure I would have disagreed with Jan's take on one to be honest..

[spoonrobot]

Originally Posted by fourflys

so, there seems to be quite a few on this thread that like Jan's products about as equally as those that don't.. so not really sure where you got your data from.. also, some of the most recent FKT ultra distance on been on RH tires.. agree, not a lot of crit racers riding RH tires, but not real sure that's his demographic..

How many paved course FKT? How many FKT on tires wider than the rest of the field?

I’ll answer because I looked last year; 0 and 0.

The tires are great, they’re also not nearly as fast as the marketing leads one to believe, the pseudoscience surrounding them is a joke.