Builder's Spotlights room?

[David Kirk]

I have a quick question concerning the Builder Spotlights section of the Paceline…..there used to be many builders featured and now there are just a few. I wonder why that is and where the rest of the builders went? I for one would love to see them back up? Can any of the mods shed light on this?

dave

[prototoast]

They're still there. At the bottom, you can see by default, it only shows threads that have been updated within the past year. You can change that to show all threads. Just need more builders to post updates and you'll see more.

[David Kirk]

Originally Posted by prototoast

They're still there. At the bottom, you can see by default, it only shows threads that have been updated within the past year. You can change that to show all threads. Just need more builders to post updates and you'll see more.

Awesome....thanks for showing me how that works.

Would it make sense to show them all? More builders would get more questions and maybe participate more if their thread showed up for anyone going into the room. I don't know how much difference this would make - just asking.


dave

[AngryScientist]

Hey Dave.

This is a great question you have and an interesting conundrum.

William started the builder's spotlights years ago in order to bring attention or "spotlight" builders and give them and our audience here a place to show off their work and ask questions.

Only a small handful of builders ever really took advantage of this area and it was a struggle for us to understand why the threads never got much traction. it was a combination of unresponsive builders and seemingly uninterested eyeballs here. we have always encouraged more participation there, but for whatever reasons, that subcat never really got much popularity. i think it's a great resource for both us as a community of lovers of handbuilt stuff and the builders to showcase their work and field questions and interact. human connection and all.

as we all know framebuilding is a combination of actual framebuilding skills, marketing, customer service and communications mash-up, and some folks definitely do better than others at this game. it's complicated i guess. I humbly suggest that Mr Kirk is one who has struck a great balance and knows how to run a show.

That said, I am casually considering a new bike and have been thinking about who might be able to do what I want and was perusing william's framebuilders list. there are so many folks who just couldnt make the fbuilding game work and exited the space. lots of those builder spotlights are lights-out because the shingle is down and the torch is cold. the community of doers is shrinking annually. if we look at the "show me your gravel bikes" thread as a feeler gauge, many of those bikes are coming from either the big brands, or the bigger handbuilt houses like seven, moots, mosaic, firefly, etc and less from the one-man shops or very small operations.

well that was a ramble.

i would be happy to see and support more activity in the spotlight section!

[Waldo62]

I look there regularly, especially at Dave's work.

[54ny77]

i look there often....wish there was more.

anyone know what's going on with llewellyn for example?

i used to drool over his photos of various stages of build.

[alancw3]

Originally Posted by 54ny77

i look there often....wish there was more.

anyone know what's going on with llewellyn for example?

i used to drool over his photos of various stages of build.

+1. A great example. I for one sure love looking at the craftsmanship of new custom bikes. Not sure if a sign of the demise of one man shops? I sure hope not. Would have thought with covid and bike sales boom just the opposite. Hopefully all so busy with orders they don't have time to post.

[Bruce K]

Covid has been a big, ongoing issue in Australia and it may have affected Llewelyn a bit business-wise.

I have seen regular posts of new bikes on his FB page so he is still “doing his thing”

BK

[Turkle]

Having worked in very small businesses for a long time, I will say that while posting on a forum to keep in touch with the community seems like a trivial effort and a no-brainer, for people working 80+ hours a week at their life's work, spending time keeping forum members updated is not as tantalizing a proposition as you might think.

Now, I have also seen it work incredibly well. My uncle's work online and participation in various forums and YouTube has yielded tremendous benefits for his small business (4 employees). But he literally spends 15-20 hours a week on it and hires a freelance production crew for his video content. So it's not at all a trivial investment.

Most of my internet forum usage is on music sites, and I will say that forum members in general tend to be cranky, argumentative, rude, paranoid, and downright unpleasant to interact with for small business owners / artisan makers. I've seen musical artisans chased out of multiple forums. The Paceline is actually WAY better than most forums in this regard, but I think we underestimate the energy it takes to overcome even modest "bad vibes" on a 3rd-party forum when you're trying to run your business. Facebook, at least you can delete ugly posts and non-sequiturs because you control the forum on your page.

These days, when the supply chain is broken, margins are tighter than ever, and the big companies are taking the opportunity to monopolize the market, I'm not at all shocked that the little guys don't have the time, energy, or resources to maintain a robust internet presence. Especially when greedy and impatient forum members take to the internet to complain about delays in customer service response, etc.

Just some thoughts based on my personal experience. I love the Paceline so don't take this as an indictment of anything or anyone here, I am just trying to put things in a little different perspective.

[Bob Ross]

Originally Posted by Turkle

Most of my internet forum usage is on music sites, and I will say that forum members in general tend to be cranky, argumentative, rude, paranoid, and downright unpleasant to interact with

Boy, you nailed that.

[old fat man]

Well put Turkle. I know multiple builders and small business folks who are turned off on paceline because of the crappy experiences they've had with some members/customers here. It's not majority, but enough crummy customers sucking the time and joy out of the process for a builder causes them to avoid this place. Ask yourself - are you a good customer? Would you want to work with you?

Vsalon seems to keep the builders engaged because they hold a bigger "ownership" stake in the dialogue.

[jkbrwn]

Is there really still a space for that here given the prevalence of builders on vSalon?

[Bob Ross]

Originally Posted by old fat man

Vsalon seems to keep the builders engaged because they hold a bigger "ownership" stake in the dialogue.

...and yet ironically, Mr. Kirk -- and, to a lesser extent, Mr. Strong -- seems far more active over here than on vsalon, at least if you look at the past ~5 years.

I agree that the "Smoked Out" section on vsalon originally seemed to have a lot more visability/traffic/contributions than the "Builder's Spotlight" here...

[MattTuck]

It could be that everyone else is tired of Dave showing them up. I mean, who wants to put their frames up against Dave Kirk?

[timto]

I do feel that many have left bike building behind - as have I! For me, the love of fabricating a bike frame was outweighed by the enormous hustle involved to make it all happen and the risks involved.

Communication, organization, specialized requirements, specialized parts fitment, ever developing skills, ever changing frame parts, multiple suppliers, exchange rates, painting, shipping, anxiety, hundreds of emails, countless decisions, time spent, time required, profitability... not to mention the social media/marketing aspect that kicked off this thread in the first place... It's all very intense. You can be VERY busy and very engaged, but losing money, missing opportunity and time in an unsustainable practice. This realization take some people longer than others. Few have the right plan and energy and situation to make a long term, sustained and worthwhile practice out of it.

Kudos to people like Dave who are the utmost craftsperson but also business person.

Some learnings for any aspiring builders:
Stick to a 'type' of bike - something that you love and know well and can comment and give advice/perspective on. This 'model' type philosophy benefits you if you establish a set of materials and can use those and become proficient and inventory them easily - I'm talking dropouts, ht , seat stays etc. Some builders that follow this technique are 44 bikes, Sachs - instantly recognizable and they are not faffing with learning new techniques for each bike due to changing spec of inputs. These starting parameters greatly simplify your efforts in communcation, costing, supplier management and also customer expectations. just my 2 cents.