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  #136  
Old 02-21-2021, 03:34 AM
ColonelJLloyd ColonelJLloyd is offline
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Late to the party, but a note on brakes. I've no doubt that direct mount Racer Ms are as good as described, but TRP 957s with good pads, MSW rims, and segmented housing are as good a rim brake setup as I've ever had. There are lots of variables with brake setup and not everyone nails it every time.
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  #137  
Old 02-21-2021, 06:52 AM
mhespenheide mhespenheide is online now
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Mark, these are way cool. You should start a new thread on them so that people who aren't following deep into this thread can appreciate them.
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  #138  
Old 02-21-2021, 07:02 AM
Mark Davison Mark Davison is offline
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Red Davidson geometry

This is a reconstruction of the red Davidson geometry from measurements. I don't have a way to directly measure the fork rake directly, so I had to adjust it to 58mm to tie in with the front center. Trail goes down to 39.
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File Type: png red Davidson geometry.png (131.0 KB, 138 views)
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  #139  
Old 02-21-2021, 03:30 PM
Bici-Sonora Bici-Sonora is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bicycletricycle View Post
level tt, 10mm headtube extension, 80deg stem

bici sonora V.1 level tt assembly by bicycletricycle666, on Flickr

same but also 73 head angle and 440mm stays and tighter bend fork
bici sonora V.1 level tt assembly 73-440 by bicycletricycle666, on Flickr

same as above but 1.5 slope
bici sonora V.1 level tt assembly 1.5deg by bicycletricycle666, on Flickr
Thanks BikeTrike--it's very helpful to see these three different top tube slopes in a graphical form. It also reminds me that I prefer at least a slight slope on big frames as with a 0 degree slope there can be kind of an optical illusion where it looks like the TT is actually sloping down toward the head tube.

As Dave Kirk said in a thread on this subject: (I'm paraphrasing) 3 degrees is the new level top tube.

Of these three, I far and away prefer the 1.5 degree slope and think I might prefer a 2.5 ( or 2.8) slope to that. Weird how you don't know what you like until you see it.
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  #140  
Old 02-21-2021, 03:32 PM
Bici-Sonora Bici-Sonora is offline
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Thanks for adding that. I really liked the VOs with Campy levers--I had plenty of power. I've been wanting to try the segmented housing but haven't yet. This bike might be a good one to do that with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColonelJLloyd View Post
Late to the party, but a note on brakes. I've no doubt that direct mount Racer Ms are as good as described, but TRP 957s with good pads, MSW rims, and segmented housing are as good a rim brake setup as I've ever had. There are lots of variables with brake setup and not everyone nails it every time.
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  #141  
Old 02-21-2021, 03:35 PM
Bici-Sonora Bici-Sonora is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hollowgram5 View Post
This is definitely one of my favorites on here. I'm curious how the geo differs from some of the others (and my Cielo).
I've reached out to Slup to see if he minds if I post his build sheet. I will say that it is 73.5 parallel with only .5 TT slope.
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  #142  
Old 02-21-2021, 03:46 PM
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bicycletricycle bicycletricycle is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bici-Sonora View Post
Thanks BikeTrike--it's very helpful to see these three different top tube slopes in a graphical form. It also reminds me that I prefer at least a slight slope on big frames as with a 0 degree slope there can be kind of an optical illusion where it looks like the TT is actually sloping down toward the head tube.

As Dave Kirk said in a thread on this subject: (I'm paraphrasing) 3 degrees is the new level top tube.

Of these three, I far and away prefer the 1.5 degree slope and think I might prefer a 2.5 ( or 2.8) slope to that. Weird how you don't know what you like until you see it.
i agree, seeing it helps a lot, although CAD is not real life. 2.5 degree
bici sonora V.1 level tt assembly 2.5 by bicycletricycle666, on Flickr
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  #143  
Old 02-21-2021, 03:56 PM
Bici-Sonora Bici-Sonora is offline
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Every iteration of the level top tube has looked better with a little more slope with this 2.5 being the best so far IMO. I suppose there will be a point (3 degrees? 3.5?) where we feel we are no longer in level TT country.

In searching the PL archives, we apparently had a big sloping TT discussion/fight with a poll back in 2015. Most PL members said they preferred a level TT, but a lot of them went with sloping to get the fit they wanted.

One bike photo that stood out to me was harryschwartzma's Jamie Swan with an 8 degree slope. It has a certain 90s MTB vibe, but I quite like it. Here is the link. Scroll down to see the Swan: https://forums.thepaceline.net/showt...e+slope&page=5

Quote:
Originally Posted by bicycletricycle View Post
i agree, seeing it helps a lot, although CAD is not real life. 2.5 degree
bici sonora V.1 level tt assembly 2.5 by bicycletricycle666, on Flickr
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  #144  
Old 02-21-2021, 04:01 PM
Bici-Sonora Bici-Sonora is offline
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And a 61cm All City Mr. Pink with parallel (well very nearly) 73 HTA/STA and a 2.7 degree TT slope that I like. I have owned a Mr. pink and a 58 CM, that was too small for me. The 61 has a ridiculously long reach. However, I like the proportions and relative levelness of the top tube:


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  #145  
Old 02-21-2021, 04:19 PM
Bici-Sonora Bici-Sonora is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hollowgram5 View Post
This is definitely one of my favorites on here. I'm curious how the geo differs from some of the others (and my Cielo).

With Slup’s permission: here’s the Riccorsa build sheet:


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  #146  
Old 02-21-2021, 05:38 PM
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I thought it had more slope than that!
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  #147  
Old 02-21-2021, 06:40 PM
Mark Davison Mark Davison is offline
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1972 Schwinn Paramount geometry for comparison

Here's the geometry of my 1972 Schwinn Paramount stage racing bike with it's original fork, as measured. Confirmation of a classic design.
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File Type: png Schwinn Paramount P15 1972 geo.png (132.0 KB, 105 views)
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  #148  
Old 02-21-2021, 06:54 PM
Mark Davison Mark Davison is offline
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Schwinn Paramount P15 1972

Same geometry with wheelbase, fork length measured parallel to the steering axis, and saddle tip to handlebars to facilitate comparison.
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File Type: png Paramount P15 v 2.png (132.9 KB, 108 views)
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  #149  
Old 02-21-2021, 08:08 PM
Bici-Sonora Bici-Sonora is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bicycletricycle View Post
I thought it had more slope than that!

Me too—I would have bet 2 degrees. I could ride it without even changing the saddle height—I used to run 81cm saddle but now run closer to 80cm.


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  #150  
Old 02-21-2021, 08:25 PM
Bici-Sonora Bici-Sonora is offline
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Here are photos of the Swan with the 8 degree slope to save you scrolling through the thread:



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