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Old 02-14-2021, 05:59 PM
Bici-Sonora Bici-Sonora is offline
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2021 Andy Gilmour Medium Reach Brake

I'll go ahead and begin what might be a long thread.

Almost immediately after sending the Kirk MRB back to Bend Oregon to Dan's custody, I missed it. It wasn't just that specific Kirk, although that was part of it, but I was missing a fast light 700c x 30ish road bike that wasn't overbuilt for a 6'2" 170# rider.

I've known Andy Gilmour for about 15 years. He has done a bunch of repair work on my vintage frames: he replaced a top tube and re-painted a Raleigh International; reamed the seat tube of a Bruce Gordon; straightened and aligned the fork on a Lejeune. When I dropped off the fork, he called the same afternoon to tell me it was ready. Fast and friendly service, delivered with stories about frame building and racing, and usually a beer from the shop fridge. He builds aluminum and carbon too, but he largely flies under the radar.

Over the years, whenever I saw Andy at a swap or bike event, he would say, "when are you going to have me make you a bike?" to which I would reply, "as soon as I sell more of the bikes filling up my garage." Well, I've slowly but steadily simplified my collection, and Gilmour seemed like a great local choice to build me a bike to fill the slot left by the Kirk.

It will be my first custom. Including Kirk, I considered a bunch of other well-regarded makers often seen on the PL--Hampsten, Nobilette, DeSalvo, Clockwork, and others. In the end, I decided to keep it local. Andy's shop is only a short bike ride from my house.

I delivered him a folder with geometry options and photos and drawings that I've saved over the years. Andy is old school--no Cad drawings--but instead an actual scale paper drawing of the frame on a big old drafting board. He is a rim brake guy, and was grousing that he might have to buy thru-axle and disc frame building fixtures.

When I arrived, he showed me a Confente frame that had been in an accident and that he was repairing. He had spread out an assortment of Richard Sachs, Ritchey, and Pacenti lugs, fork crowns, and dropouts on the drafting table for me to fiddle with while we talked.

We talked about tire clearance, brakes, and forks. Steel or carbon is the first question, which also will determine if the fork will be 1" or 1 1/8". We also discussed standard vs. oversized tubing.

Next steps, decide on the fork material and bring in my mid-reach brakes and wheelset with the widest rim and tire combination that I plan to run on the bike.

After riding a brisk 60 miles on my MAP yesterday, I think I've answered the fork question: steel it will be.

More soon...

Last edited by Bici-Sonora; 02-14-2021 at 06:20 PM.
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Old 02-14-2021, 06:04 PM
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madsciencenow madsciencenow is offline
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This is going to be fun! Can’t wait to follow the journey here!!


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Old 02-14-2021, 06:23 PM
mhespenheide mhespenheide is offline
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I've heard a lot of good things about him, and you can't beat local access. Looking forwards to hearing more.
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Old 02-14-2021, 07:21 PM
clyde the point clyde the point is offline
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Sounds great I still dig my Mil on sale frame, keeps on surprising me! Always fun to jump on a custom and std reach brake bikes rock.
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Old 02-14-2021, 07:26 PM
Bici-Sonora Bici-Sonora is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clyde the point View Post
Sounds great I still dig my Mil on sale frame, keeps on surprising me! Always fun to jump on a custom and std reach brake bikes rock.

I’m still planning to get the Milwaukee while I wait—might get the on sale one now. fun to compare.


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Old 02-15-2021, 01:22 PM
v531xc v531xc is offline
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oh wow, Scott, this sounds amazing! I'm tempted to say Andy should make a duplicate for me :-)
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  #7  
Old 02-15-2021, 01:36 PM
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bicycletricycle bicycletricycle is offline
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Exciting news! I recently got my old IF built tournesol back, 57mm reach brakes with 30mm tires right now. It is nice to have a simple "lightweight" in the stable although most of the time I still grab something with bigger tires, lights, fenders and a handlebar bag on it.

I am looking forward to some longer road rides this summer on that bike.

So many details to think about on a build like that.

u thinkin Modern or weirdo vintage rando parts?
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Old 02-15-2021, 02:52 PM
Bici-Sonora Bici-Sonora is offline
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Parts---hold on just a second! I'm still trying to come to terms with how many degrees to slope to the top tube and such! haha.

I really *am* struggling a bit. Despite having owned so many good bicycles whose geometry I can use for reference, nailing down exactly what I want on this one is not proving as easy as I'd hoped. In plugging in numbers, I feel like I'm cooking up a weird amalgam of Dan's Kirk, my Rivendell Quickbeam, my Ritchey and my MAP. Take all those and then throw in a pinch of Chapman, Rob English, Look 595, Riv. Roadeo, and Ibis Hakka, and wait for son of Frankenbike to come to life.

Current frontrunner Geo.:

61cm ST (c to t)
72.5 deg. parallel HT & ST
590mm TT
3.5 degree TT Slope
197mm HT
45mm Fork Rake
435mm Chainstays
80mm BB drop

My concerns about the geo. above. Is the BB drop too much, and should I shorten the chainstays a bit?

Part of the geo. decision also centers around parts. The more modern the build, the more I'm likely to favor a more severe TT slope.

I have three build options on hand:
  • Black Chorus 12 with Black Deda and Whiskey cockpit seatpost. Black wheel choices include DT PR Dicut Onix 1400, DT 240 and Belgium Plus, or Zondas
  • Silver Centaur 11 Group with mix of Ritchey, Erikson cockpit stuff, Ritchey Classic wheelset
  • Campagnolo DT 10 Chorus Record Group. This would be RH crankset, with repurposed Record barends as DT shifters, Chorus RD. Ritchey Classic wheelset or DT 240 and Belgium Plus, or Zondas

Next discussion OS or standard diameter tubes? Another minefield. haha
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Old 02-15-2021, 03:10 PM
Bici-Sonora Bici-Sonora is offline
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Here are a few of the steel bikes--both modern and more traditional--that Andy has built over the that I'm using for reference to think about what I want:



https://www.gilmourbicycles.us/image...g?crc=24551011

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Old 02-15-2021, 03:26 PM
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bicycletricycle bicycletricycle is offline
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ya, trying to get everything just right can be tough, it is easy to overthink it.

How will he be joining the tubes? I assume TIG or fillet if you are freely considering slope angles?

When I think of the parts I just decide the important things first-
1. gearing
2. tire width
3. shifter location

Then figure out the parts that support that.

For me this usually means I am choosing weirdo parts

I totally know what you mean about slope angle being related to part style, seems silly but oh well The other main reason for more slope is more seat post equals more suspension.

As far as chainstay length goes. I like to have the same amount of gap between the front tire / downtube and rear wheel / seat tube. Just looks nice. I don't think chainstay length is really important. Shorter will be a little bit stiffer but in reality is hard to notice. Shorter ones may make the bike feel a little racier because it can change direction slightly faster it isn't actually faster. That easier change of direction might actually make the bike slower.

BB drop, I used to think BB drop was a big deal but less so recently. I have spent a lot of time on 2 different bikes recently. one with a 10.5" bb and one wit a 11.75" bb. After getting used to it they both feel great. I am not saying that you can't tell the difference but just that I think it is easy to make too big a fuss about this. For me bb height is more about a balance of easy mounting/dismounting and ground clearance for cornering/road obstacles.
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Old 02-16-2021, 11:00 AM
Bici-Sonora Bici-Sonora is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bicycletricycle View Post
As far as chainstay length goes. I like to have the same amount of gap between the front tire / downtube and rear wheel / seat tube. Just looks nice.
^This

I had not thought about it that way, but now I see that some of my favorite bikes have roughly the same gap front and rear. It's another thing to consider.
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  #12  
Old 02-15-2021, 04:14 PM
Clean39T Clean39T is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bici-Sonora View Post

Current frontrunner Geo.:

61cm ST (c to t)
72.5 deg. parallel HT & ST
590mm TT
3.5 degree TT Slope
197mm HT
45mm Fork Rake
435mm Chainstays
80mm BB drop

My concerns about the geo. above. Is the BB drop too much, and should I shorten the chainstays a bit?

Part of the geo. decision also centers around parts. The more modern the build, the more I'm likely to favor a more severe TT slope.

I have three build options on hand:
  • Black Chorus 12 with Black Deda and Whiskey cockpit seatpost. Black wheel choices include DT PR Dicut Onix 1400, DT 240 and Belgium Plus, or Zondas
  • Silver Centaur 11 Group with mix of Ritchey, Erikson cockpit stuff, Ritchey Classic wheelset
  • Campagnolo DT 10 Chorus Record Group. This would be RH crankset, with repurposed Record barends as DT shifters, Chorus RD. Ritchey Classic wheelset or DT 240 and Belgium Plus, or Zondas
My votes:

Go slightly OS on the tubing so you can still feel confident on it with two bottles and a frame pack.

Steal the English style of putting braze-ons for a under-TT custom bag - so much more aero and stable than a burrito bag hanging off the front or something dangling off the saddle.

Chorus 12 is perfect for this kind of bike.

80mm BB drop is perfect with the fatter tires as compared to running 80mm w 23c.

435 chainstays are great for our height.

Slight TT slope as needed to allow a 280-300mm post and get your bars in the right spot. I'm guessing 3 deg max, hopefully less, though a bit of extra standover on a bike that could see some underbiking allroad stuff might not be bad. Just don't go over 5-deg please..

Everything else looks wonderful and very much in line with something I'd love to have myself!
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  #13  
Old 02-15-2021, 05:02 PM
Bici-Sonora Bici-Sonora is offline
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Nice to get some confirmation from a rider of similar stature.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clean39T View Post
My votes:

Go slightly OS on the tubing so you can still feel confident on it with two bottles and a frame pack.My gut tells me OS too. My MAP is OS, your Kirk is OS, and I remember Mike Kone at Boulder saying anything bigger than 60cm should probably be OS. A compromise would be to do regular OS (as opposed to double OS--so, 31.8 DT, 28.6 TT and ST

Steal the English style of putting braze-ons for a under-TT custom bag - so much more aero and stable than a burrito bag hanging off the front or something dangling off the saddle.That is a good idea that I hadn't considered. I'll take a look at Rob's site

Chorus 12 is perfect for this kind of bike.I agree, the sub-compact should be just about perfect--I'm fighting an urge to put DT shifters on it for the sake of front end cable cleanliness, but I've really liked the Campy brifters

80mm BB drop is perfect with the fatter tires as compared to running 80mm w 23c.

435 chainstays are great for our height.Good to get confirmation on that. I think it is a good middle ground. Andy pulled out some super thin Reynolds seat stays that I think will compliment the back end well.

Slight TT slope as needed to allow a 280-300mm post and get your bars in the right spot. I'm guessing 3 deg max, hopefully less, though a bit of extra standover on a bike that could see some underbiking allroad stuff might not be bad. Just don't go over 5-deg please..I agree--I'll keep it at 3 degrees

Everything else looks wonderful and very much in line with something I'd love to have myself!
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  #14  
Old 02-15-2021, 05:59 PM
Clean39T Clean39T is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bici-Sonora View Post
Nice to get some confirmation from a rider of similar stature.
I support the regular OS w 1" steerer... Zero reason to go 1.125" if you weigh under 200lb and aren't loading it up, atmo.
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  #15  
Old 02-15-2021, 03:14 PM
Bici-Sonora Bici-Sonora is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bicycletricycle View Post
Exciting news! I recently got my old IF built tournesol back, 57mm reach brakes with 30mm tires right now. It is nice to have a simple "lightweight" in the stable although most of the time I still grab something with bigger tires, lights, fenders and a handlebar bag on it.

I am looking forward to some longer road rides this summer on that bike.

So many details to think about on a build like that.

u thinkin Modern or weirdo vintage rando parts?
That is really cool. I have to say that Tournesols and Hampsten SBs are a big inspiration for the design of this bike. I also feel a desire to try to re-create my Boulder Road Sport (that you and Dan also owned) but in a size that fits me.
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