Giro Stage 18+19 (spoilers, of course)

[paredown]

Originally Posted by bobswire

Congrats to Froome, he made it an exciting Giro.

Yes.

I was suspending disbelief about yesterday's performance until today.

Dumoulin was knackered (amazing ride--even tried to shake things up at the bottom of the last climb), Pinault went off the back like someone threw an anchor off his bike and was so far in the pain cave that he was dry heaving while staying on his bike, and the one person who looked unmarked by yesterday's exertions was Chris Froome.

I'm sorry--put me in the disbeliever's camp.

[jlwdm]

Froome can't win on this Forum. In the tour Sky is criticized for just grinding it out with his team. Other riders are criticized for not attacking earlier in climbing stages. Froome attacks from way out and now he is criticized.

Yates was gapped before Finestre. As a few forum members suggested two days ago Yates seemed to be tiring. There is also the mental aspect of winning a tour. The pressure from the Giro is not like the Tour, but still it is heavy. Lots of interviews (changing your routine), pressure of leading, pressure to win for your team and a whole new role in the peloton. It is much easier to sit in a race and let the leading team do all the work. The mental part of a grand tour is right up there with the physical part.

Froome has shown at times he can be a great descender and many of the other riders at the top of GC were not as good on the descent. The other riders never worked together. And many of the other riders are good climbers but not really great.

I appreciate his attack just like his downhill attack in the Tour and his attack on the flat with Sagan and two others.

Jeff

[FlashUNC]

It's truly amazing how a mid pack Continental rider in Africa can, through overcoming a mysterious African virus, asthma and kidney failure with the help of marginal gains, become a Coppi-esque Grand Tour rider. How you go from finishing 3 minutes behind Lars Boom at the U23 world time trial championships to now one of the greatest against the clock is surely down to your meticulous preparation.

Or it's doping. Yeah, a lot of doping.

[bobswire]

Originally Posted by paredown

Yes.

I was suspending disbelief about yesterday's performance until today.

Dumoulin was knackered (amazing ride--even tried to shake things up at the bottom of the last climb), Pinault went off the back like someone threw an anchor off his bike and was so far in the pain cave that he was dry heaving while staying on his bike, and the one person who looked unmarked by yesterday's exertions was Chris Froome.

I'm sorry--put me in the disbeliever's camp.

Did I ask if you are a believer, all I said is I was entertained.
I'm just a spectator, the rest is fodder for the media and those who wish to engage in it.

[Big Dan]

same as it ever was...

[John H.]

But you could also apply your same storyline and time line to grand champions.

Guys like Nibali, Cunego, etc.. have been on the s**t since they were 15.

Everyone is doing the same things to win.

Originally Posted by FlashUNC

It's truly amazing how a mid pack Continental rider in Africa can, through overcoming a mysterious African virus, asthma and kidney failure with the help of marginal gains, become a Coppi-esque Grand Tour rider. How you go from finishing 3 minutes behind Lars Boom at the U23 world time trial championships to now one of the greatest against the clock is surely down to your meticulous preparation.

Or it's doping. Yeah, a lot of doping.

[paredown]

Originally Posted by bobswire

Did I ask if you are a believer, all I said is I was entertained.
I'm just a spectator, the rest is fodder for the media and those who wish to engage in it.

Apologies--I was not directing the comment at you, just musing out loud. I too found it entertaining.

[FlashUNC]

Originally Posted by John H.

But you could also apply your same storyline and time line to grand champions.

Guys like Nibali, Cunego, etc.. have been on the s**t since they were 15.

Everyone is doing the same things to win.

Not really. Nibali was 3rd at the U23 World TT championships in 2002 and 2004. He won GP Ouest at 21. He was national junior road race champ in Italy, which is never a small feat.

He showed every sign very early on in his career that he was going to be an exceedingly good bike racer. Froome showed none of that until he left Barloworld for Sky.

[cadence90]

.... ..
.

[enr1co]

Originally Posted by FlashUNC

Not really. Nibali was 3rd at the U23 World TT championships in 2002 and 2004. He won GP Ouest at 21. He was national junior road race champ in Italy, which is never a small feat.

He showed every sign very early on in his career that he was going to be an exceedingly good bike racer. Froome showed none of that until he left Barloworld for Sky.

Leaked photos! First stop for pack fodder Froome after leaving Barloworld... the Sky transformation lab

[weisan]

not trying to defend anybody but this premise of "prior indication of talent at early age" can be over-reached. I have personally known many champions or successful athletes who showed absolutely no sign of talent at an earlier age but all of sudden burst into the scenes. We call them "late bloomers" and hard work.

don't need to argue...just a small observation.

[John H.]

Froome was 2nd in the Vuelta in 2011- so hardly a Johnny come lately.

But Froome, Nibali, Contador, etc. have been on the program for a long time-
Italian guys probably longer than most-
New guys will just take over when these guys go away-
Wout Poels will become the next Sky grand tour winner.

If you need the sport to be clean for you to enjoy it- You better find a new sport to follow.

Originally Posted by FlashUNC

Not really. Nibali was 3rd at the U23 World TT championships in 2002 and 2004. He won GP Ouest at 21. He was national junior road race champ in Italy, which is never a small feat.

He showed every sign very early on in his career that he was going to be an exceedingly good bike racer. Froome showed none of that until he left Barloworld for Sky.

[FlashUNC]

Originally Posted by John H.

Froome was 2nd in the Vuelta in 2011- so hardly a Johnny come lately.

But Froome, Nibali, Contador, etc. have been on the program for a long time-
Italian guys probably longer than most-
New guys will just take over when these guys go away-
Wout Poels will become the next Sky grand tour winner.

If you need the sport to be clean for you to enjoy it- You better find a new sport to follow.

2nd at the Vuelta...for Team Sky. Not two years prior he was posting his best career result to that point, being on the podium (not even winning) a minor South African stage race.

He goes to Sky and it's like a switch is flipped. Nobody goes from donkey to race horse like that seemingly over night. He was an anonymous rider in even minor European races and decent, but no dominating, performances in far less competitive African races.

This is the guy who's now the best Grand Tour rider of his era? There's a bridge to Manhattan I have to sell too if we're buying this.

[John H.]

If a rider is not an international level rider as a junior- that is how they come up. Lower level teams.
Look at guys like Michael Woods, Sven Tuft, etc..
These guys paid their dues on domestic teams too. Doesn't make them donkeys-

The switch that you talk about took many years-

I do agree with you that a team like Sky grows tour champions- But there has to be some talent to work with.
Success in cycling has many components.
Talent is only one of them.
Drive, focus, motivation, luck, crash avoidance, ability to assimilate huge training and racing loads without injury or illness...
Also drug use. But more than that- how one responds to PED's. Some are terrific responders, some are not.

And if we remove Froome from the equation- Is their a clean successor? Hardly-

Do you think 3 stage wins, a great prologue and a bunch of days in yellow by Simon Yates was clean?
Why did he crack? Likely couldn't risk taking the final blood bag.

Originally Posted by FlashUNC

2nd at the Vuelta...for Team Sky. Not two years prior he was posting his best career result to that point, being on the podium (not even winning) a minor South African stage race.

He goes to Sky and it's like a switch is flipped. Nobody goes from donkey to race horse like that seemingly over night. He was an anonymous rider in even minor European races and decent, but no dominating, performances in far less competitive African races.

This is the guy who's now the best Grand Tour rider of his era? There's a bridge to Manhattan I have to sell too if we're buying this.

[Drmojo]

Originally Posted by John H.

If a rider is not an international level rider as a junior- that is how they come up. Lower level teams.
Look at guys like Michael Woods, Sven Tuft, etc..
These guys paid their dues on domestic teams too. Doesn't make them donkeys-

The switch that you talk about took many years-

I do agree with you that a team like Sky grows tour champions- But there has to be some talent to work with.
Success in cycling has many components.
Talent is only one of them.
Drive, focus, motivation, luck, crash avoidance, ability to assimilate huge training and racing loads without injury or illness...
Also drug use. But more than that- how one responds to PED's. Some are terrific responders, some are not.

And if we remove Froome from the equation- Is their a clean successor? Hardly-

Do you think 3 stage wins, a great prologue and a bunch of days in yellow by Simon Yates was clean?
Why did he crack? Likely couldn't risk taking the final blood bag.

Lance and Greg were both world class athletes as teenagers.
Both won World’s int their early 20’s
Froome had bilharzia and new style Sky TUE astma science with much less raw talent
IMO of course
plus the Italians got their money’s worth out of Zoom zoom