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[shovelhd]

My favorite is the short track speed skating. A crit on ice.

[tuscanyswe]

Originally Posted by shovelhd

My favorite is the short track speed skating. A crit on ice.

Yeah but with a tad more luck involved. You know that something is up when an Australian wins a gold medal on skates .)
Tho it makes for a good show i guess

[shovelhd]

That's the roller derby part of it. Love it.

[jmoore]

Originally Posted by MattTuck

Yeah, at some level you have sports where the judge is the clock or a finish line camera, and others where it is a set of so called 'experts' that judge stuff on a bunch of quasi-subjective points.

Any event where a uniform and music selection can effect the outcome of the competition (figure skating, and to some extent gymnastics), is not a sport. I don't care how difficult it is physically. And yes I know figure skating and gymnastics are very difficult.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by jmoore

Any event where a uniform and music selection can effect the outcome of the competition (figure skating, and to some extent gymnastics), is not a sport. I don't care how difficult it is physically. And yes I know figure skating and gymnastics are very difficult.

Pretty much this. These event can be competitions (and frequently very difficult competitions), but they aren't truly sports.

Why aren't they sports? Because their judging is inherently biased. Human beings virtually can not be separated from subconscious biases. In many, if not most, judged competitions, the competitors who are expected to do well are judged well, regardless of the objective performance on that given day.

Other sports are measured by stop watches, tape measures, cameras, goal scoring, etc., which are objective and not swayed by subconscious expectations.

[shovelhd]

It's a little more grey than that. I'm a USAC official, and it's a rare race day when I don't have to make at least one judgement call. Even TT's, a race judged solely by the clock, have rules, which can affect a rider's placing.

[Jaybee]

Originally Posted by shovelhd

It's a little more grey than that. I'm a USAC official, and it's a rare race day when I don't have to make at least one judgement call. Even TT's, a race judged solely by the clock, have rules, which can affect a rider's placing.

Agree. Every sport has referees, so every sport has some element of human judgement included that can affect the outcome. The closest thing I can think of to a purely non-judged sport is a 100m dash, where technology is determining false starts and finish order. Even then, there are officials watching for lane violations. While things like gymnastics and figure skating have a lot more observation and judgment included in their scoring, the specific moves/deficiencies and points gained/lost from them are pretty cut and dried.

[jmoore]

Originally Posted by shovelhd

It's a little more grey than that. I'm a USAC official, and it's a rare race day when I don't have to make at least one judgement call. Even TT's, a race judged solely by the clock, have rules, which can affect a rider's placing.

Are the riders uniform aesthetics ever considered as a factor in their placing?

I'd have a lot more stomach for figure skating if everyone skated to no music and they all wore the same uniform. Look at the floor routine in gymnastics. The men all just blaze around and do their routine. No music or flashy costume. But the women have an artistic component. Is this sports, or a recital? Show me the technical mastery of your event and I'm interested.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by Jaybee

Agree. Every sport has referees, so every sport has some element of human judgement included that can affect the outcome. The closest thing I can think of to a purely non-judged sport is a 100m dash, where technology is determining false starts and finish order. Even then, there are officials watching for lane violations. While things like gymnastics and figure skating have a lot more observation and judgment included in their scoring, the specific moves/deficiencies and points gained/lost from them are pretty cut and dried.

The difference is that in addition to the "technical score" (which is as you say is fairly cut and dried as far as points values/deductions), figure skating also includes the "program components score". This score is made up of 5 parts: Skating skills, choreography, performance, personal interpretation of the music, and movement. Clearly, these can't be anything but subjective.

Competitions based on time, placement, distance, goals scored, etc. are attempting to resolve performance by objective criteria. It is true that judging may inject some subjectivity, the goal is to be as objective as possible. In contrast, competitions like Figure Skating, Ice Dancing, Diving and Gymnastics purposely embrace subjective elements into their scoring.

[cadence90]

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[bikingshearer]

Originally Posted by cadence90

Shameful when a Swedish guy knows who "Diggins" is, and I have to look her up.

Kind of like how the average Italian is much more likely to be familiar with Andy Hampsten than is the average American.

[cadence90]

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[shovelhd]

Originally Posted by jmoore

Are the riders uniform aesthetics ever considered as a factor in their placing?

I busted Zanc for riding practically naked, but uniform violations are mostly ignored. The worst violators are women with their hair blocking their number.

[Frankwurst]

I like curling. Laugh if you will but having done it on more than one occasion there is alot more to it than meets the eye. Not as exciting as figure skating and someone landing a triple camel toe but the strategy and ability to place stones is a challenge and not as easy as it appears. I also enjoy the ski jumping, speed skating, downhill skiing, luge, bobsled and all the other high speed sports. Go U.S.A.

[jmoore]

Originally Posted by shovelhd

I busted Zanc for riding practically naked, but uniform violations are mostly ignored. The worst violators are women with their hair blocking their number.

Practically Naked Zank would be a good band name.

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