Honey and vinegar

[weisan]

9 Unexpected Uses for Honey
https://www.healthline.com/health/9-...uses-for-honey

95 Household Vinegar Uses You Never Knew - Reader's Digest
https://www.rd.com/home/cleaning-org...s-for-vinegar/

9 vs. 95

Vinegar wins.

[joosttx]

Originally Posted by weisan

9 Unexpected Uses for Honey
https://www.healthline.com/health/9-...uses-for-honey

95 Household Vinegar Uses You Never Knew - Reader's Digest
https://www.rd.com/home/cleaning-org...s-for-vinegar/

9 vs. 95

Vinegar wins.

This what I know about Honey eerrr honeybees.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/...nalCode=tjar20

[peanutgallery]

Saw the other thread and ran the other way as the tone was off the charts on both ends of the spectrum. Like the OP, for good or for bad (on my part) the whole issue is something that that's beyond whatever occurs for me to think about. I apologize in advance, I'm learning

But I will say this, as this a cycling website: If the UCI has managed to bungle the doping and the financial component of cycling/racing for quite some time..how could we ever expect them to handle an issue like this correctly?

Peace, no offense intended

[ColonelJLloyd]

I'm a man in a trance. I'm a boy in short pants. I've got something to say.

[KJMUNC]

We all just have to keep talking....

[alancw3]

Originally Posted by weisan

houston pal, I appreciate where you are coming from. I concur. I agree. I support. Fully and whole-heartedly.

But if I may, I would like to contribute to the discussion by making a few general observations. And do forgive me, for I, too, am limited by my ability to express myself adequately, in any case I will do my best.

We are our worst enemy.

I just read some recent facebook postings by my friend dbrk encouraging folks to engage in political discourse and not to shun from talking about religion, both are off-limits here on this forum. You can read them here:
https://www.facebook.com/profdbrk/


I don't have a facebook account and I don't hang out at FB. The reason I found those posts is in searching for "Douglas Brooks" on google. I missed my friend dbrk and his contributions on this forum. His name came up in my recent conversation with Ray, we both had the privilege and the pleasure of attending one of the forum gatherings that Douglas and his wife had hosted at their house. They are such a lovely and generous couple who have opened up their house regularly and provided hospitality. We, like many, are much indebted to them.

Coming back to the point I was trying to make...we are our worst enemy.

It's well and good to appeal for fruitful discussions but it's never easy to carry them out in practice. So much of it depends on how well we have done our homework, our own sense of self-awareness, acknowledging our blindspots, biases and prejudice, before we can even begin to express empathy and seek to understand the other person's viewpoint.

It's a lot of work....and very few among us will be able to do that regularly and consistently. And when you are talking about posting on a forum where typing a quick response and hit submit, knee-jerk reactions, all that thoughtfulness and well-manicured arguments pretty much go out the window unless we observed a high degree of self-discipline and moral obligations. Again, hard to ask of anyone to do that regularly and consistently. If we are honest with ourselves and fortunately or perhaps unfortunately, whatever we posted on this forum remained a "searchable record" that we can look back and review and if we do, what we will find is...even the best among us don't have a "perfect" record. We are all guilty at some point of violating the very code of conduct that we advocate to carry out and demand of others. We are our worst enemy. Hard to live by a high standard on a regular and consistent basis. Nobody can do it. Doesn't mean we don't try. But it takes a lot of work and concentration. This is a forum. Some take it more seriously than others. The ones who take themselves too seriously...they are gone. They were offended at some point or threw in the towel. They crushed under the weight of their own expectations and the demands they made of others.

Even my friend dbrk is "guilty" at some point of cutting someone off in a political or religious discussion. I have seen it before. It's not his fault.
It's not easy to engage in that kind of conversation. Now here, not on this forum. It takes a great deal of trust, goodwill, and patience to see it through. The setting and the context have to be just right and appropriate for any meaningful progress to be made on those types of topics. They don't just happen. Prior preparations and ground rules are needed.

Houston pal, you are "guilty" too. I have seen it.
So am I.

We are not perfect.
We have good days and bad days.
Our life circumstances, upbringing and training shaped us a certain way. They don't change overnight. For most, they don't change AT ALL...for the rest of their lives. They stayed the course for the most part.

Life changing events are few and between. It takes a real jolt for someone to wake up from their fixed ideas.

We are all the same. Some can handle certain pressure and stress better than others but in the end, they too are only humans.

These are just some of my random thoughts.

great post! thanks for your thoughts! i would agree that we should all strive to be more tolerant and respectful to others views. i know that i sometimes fall in the trap of not being so and regret in retrospect.

[alancw3]

Originally Posted by joosttx

I just finished reading the Transgender winning athlete thread and frankly want to make a plea. I wish I was more eloquent and technically skilled at writing so that I can surgically address my topic without it seeming like I am attacking different philosophical, ethical viewpoints because I am not but lack the skill to express that. And by not attacking them does not mean I agree with them. I am more concerned with how arguments or takes are formed and presented and rebutted. And this post is about that subject, so I will repeat my last sentence I am more concerned with how arguments or takes are formed and presented and rebutted than everyone's viewpoints on the subject.

Gender classification of transgender persons in sports is a very complex issue that I have not thought too much about simply because it is very complex and does not affect me personally or my personal orbit, forgive me. Sports physiology, ethics, psychological and personal experience all meld together in this debate like more social debates (substitute Science for sports phys.). Posters cited all these categories that helped build a picture of the complexity. Others admitted ignorance, and other posters took hard positions on either side of the issue without much reasoning. And of course, some trolled and got really nasty.

My plea that when someone disagrees with you or explains ignorance that you do not assume the worst and attack them. That is no way to convince someone. All it does is pushes them away from you. We are never going to get anywhere screaming at each other- it is like the opposite of logical stalemate, its a yellmate tm. (just made that up)

We can get somewhere by disagreeing . It is also cool to gravitate to people who share you views. Just make sound, thoughtful arguments for your position or simply provide credible information important to the discussion. Attacking people who disagree with you only drives a wedge between you and them, fueling distrust between you and them on all topics. Ultimately building tribes.

I am a middle-aged white male of privilege. I believe privilege comes with responsibility and that my viewpoint is not the same as others- I have not walked in your shoes. But my education and privilege have taught me to recognize this and learn from others views and experience.

So, please understand that the best way to have someone hear you is not to attack them or belittle them but present your stance and where it comes from so that they can understand your points. They may not agree but I think more of them will think you (and your ideas) are less of a jackass. And respect will be earned regardless of your position.

So try honey before vinegar and fight tribalism and champion thoughtfulness.

another great post to start the thread!

[soulspinner]

Originally Posted by bigbill

because we don't have face to face conversations, we've lost the politeness required when disagreeing with a person who is actually there in real life. There's no real repercussion for being a jerk or using a personal attack in an argument if that person is on line. Now we see it in real life because as a society, we've lost the polite part.

+1

[weisan]

[93KgBike]

Originally Posted by joosttx

I just finished reading the Transgender winning athlete thread... I am a middle-aged white male of privilege... so, please understand that the best way to have someone hear you is not to attack them or belittle them but present your stance and where it comes from.

And what I quoted [from MLK] is how he purposed a solution. My point understand your foe, try to see’ where he is coming from. Treat him with respect. The best is you may turn him, you may earn his respect, you may get nothing . But attacking him will not help your cause...

It would have been great to have you, and the many in this thread that are reflecting your sentiment, engage in that thread by asking questions, and confronting the problem with bigotry as social policy. It was a great opportunity to discuss an on-topic bike-related issue that engages this forum philosophically and politically about cycling. It's not the first, but like many others, the mods locked it. That is sad. And it's an indictment of us as thinking adults that we can't keep a conversation like that going despite bombast, hyperbole and insult.

I don't have a stance on how to deal with the underlying issue, but I believe that ALL American citizens, and everyone under US jurisdiction deserves to be treated with absolute equality of opportunity. Maybe I'm not doing anything to directly support transgender people, but my ideals as an American [and human] at least give me a reason to say something about how we discuss the issue.

I have often wondered, what kind of life would a man as energetic and effective as MLK have lived if racism and racist public policy were non-existent?

It's hard to imagine a more significant American hero. He died fighting for our fundamental ideals, for white and black people alike, for all people alike, as a volunteer. And he was martyred by his countryman.

I admire this quote from him, deeply:

The call for intelligence is a call for open-mindedness, sound judgment, and love for truth. It is a call for people to rise above the stagnation of closed-mindedness and the paralysis of gullibility. One does not need to be a profound scholar to be open-minded, nor a keen academician to engage in an assiduous pursuit for truth. The movement for peace and justice can only be a success if it has both a mass and a militant character.