Echelon - crazy wind!

[54ny77]

Gent Wevelgem 2015

Check out how crazy this wind is around 1:10 or so, when Sagan is literally leaning into it to keep from getting blown over!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRuE...=LanterneRouge

[ultraman6970]

Echelons arent hard to learn or ride on, the problem is that is a must technique that not many riders know.

[nooneline]

Originally Posted by ultraman6970

Echelons arent hard to learn or ride on, the problem is that is a must technique that not many riders know.

counterpoint:if echelons weren't hard, then echelon racing wouldn't blow apart races. but it does.

echelons are hard, because crosswinds are hard. you're being blown sideways; your only hope of drafting is overlapping wheels with the rider in front of you, but they're being blown sideways, which means it's awfully hard to protect your front wheel. Everybody's going all over the place looking for shelter. If one jerk in front of you doesn't get the memo about the rotation you can get shunted into the gutter and watch the group slowly ride away from you.

2016 Doha Worlds. IIRC it was with over 100km left to race - the pack turned right, got a cross-tail wind, in less than a minute and the race was shattered. If you weren't in the front echelon your race was over.

[echappist]

Originally Posted by nooneline

counterpoint:if echelons weren't hard, then echelon racing wouldn't blow apart races. but it does.

echelons are hard, because crosswinds are hard. you're being blown sideways; your only hope of drafting is overlapping wheels with the rider in front of you, but they're being blown sideways, which means it's awfully hard to protect your front wheel. Everybody's going all over the place looking for shelter. If one jerk in front of you doesn't get the memo about the rotation you can get shunted into the gutter and watch the group slowly ride away from you.

2016 Doha Worlds. IIRC it was with over 100km left to race - the pack turned right, got a cross-tail wind, in less than a minute and the race was shattered. If you weren't in the front echelon your race was over.

Pretty much this

And also, riding to the side limits the number of people that could fit in an echelon, so depending on road width, maybe 20-30 riders can fit into the echelon, and anyone who couldn't will have to work a lot harder just to stay attached to the rear of the echelon.

In such situations, not so bad to start a second echelon, as there will be some strong riders who get caught out of the first echelon. If the second echelon works well together, it actually won't lose time. In fact, at that particular race, Paolini was initially caught out of the first echelon, and instead of trying to muscle his way in, he wisely started a second one, and the two front echelons eventually merged when the wind direction changed.

[fiamme red]

Originally Posted by nooneline

counterpoint:if echelons weren't hard, then echelon racing wouldn't blow apart races. but it does.

This photo from the 1974 Giro shows how hard the riders in an echelon are working.

https://twitter.com/davidguenel/stat...57587865649152

[54ny77]

What an awesome pic!

Makes today's riders look like anorexic models.

Wonder if the speeds are that much faster today vs. back then. Anyone know? An apples to apples comparison would be telling on a 1 day classic with exact same route.

[joevers]

Merckx won Paris Roubaix 3 times, twice at 36km/h, once at 41. GVA won it in 2017 above 45kmh. So yeah, definitely a bit faster. World tours aren't that much faster because the race directors make them harder every year, but still a few km/h faster.

[54ny77]

Perhaps that means the skinny jeans set are putting out very impressive power for their size, plus aero benefit of modern gear (however incremental, depending on conditions).

Quick search turned up this very informative time chart on Paris Roubaix:

http://www.bikeraceinfo.com/classics...aix-index.html

Some examples:
Marcel Kint 41.5 km/hr. in '43
Peter Post 45.1 km/hr avg in '64
Fabian Cancellara 42.2 km/hr in '06
Phillipe Gilbert 43.2km/hr in '19

That's with each race +/- ~10k distance, depending on route that year.

And if you want to call "peak doping years" late 90's and thereafter, the speeds weren't meaningfully different either.

Originally Posted by joevers

Merckx won Paris Roubaix 3 times, twice at 36km/h, once at 41. GVA won it in 2017 above 45kmh. So yeah, definitely a bit faster. World tours aren't that much faster because the race directors make them harder every year, but still a few km/h faster.

[BobbyJones]

Or the weather conditions we're talking about we're just more favorable.

Those numbers should really be viewed in context of the rest of the pack.

Originally Posted by 54ny77

Perhaps that means the skinny jeans set are putting out very impressive power for their size, plus aero benefit of modern gear (however incremental, depending on conditions).

Quick search turned up this very informative time chart on Paris Roubaix:

http://www.bikeraceinfo.com/classics...aix-index.html

Some examples:
Marcel Kint 41.5 km/hr. in '43
Peter Post 45.1 km/hr avg in '64
Fabian Cancellara 42.2 km/hr in '06
Phillipe Gilbert 43.2km/hr in '19

That's with each race +/- ~10k distance, depending on route that year.

And if you want to call "peak doping years" late 90's and thereafter, the speeds weren't meaningfully different either.

[54ny77]

True. All kinds of asterisks needed.

Remember how bad '02 was?

Museeuw did it at 39.2 avg.

Originally Posted by BobbyJones

Or the weather conditions we're talking about we're just more favorable.

Those numbers should really be viewed in context of the rest of the pack.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by BobbyJones

Or the weather conditions we're talking about we're just more favorable.

Those numbers should really be viewed in context of the rest of the pack.

^^^^ This. I've done a multiple iterations of races on the same course, and the average speeds can vary quite bit from one race to the next, depending on many factors, including weather, pack dynamics, team strategies, etc. Mass start racing isn't so much about how hard you can go for the entire distance, its about being able to go extra hard at just the right times and places.

[BdaGhisallo]

Originally Posted by 54ny77

Perhaps that means the skinny jeans set are putting out very impressive power for their size, plus aero benefit of modern gear (however incremental, depending on conditions).

Quick search turned up this very informative time chart on Paris Roubaix:

http://www.bikeraceinfo.com/classics...aix-index.html

Some examples:
Marcel Kint 41.5 km/hr. in '43
Peter Post 45.1 km/hr avg in '64
Fabian Cancellara 42.2 km/hr in '06
Phillipe Gilbert 43.2km/hr in '19

That's with each race +/- ~10k distance, depending on route that year.

And if you want to call "peak doping years" late 90's and thereafter, the speeds weren't meaningfully different either.

You also need to factor in the change in the character of the route. Prior to the late 1960s, most of the famous sections of cobbles we know today were not in the route. Town mayors were ashamed of their cobbles, feeling they hinted that towns were too poor to pave old roads, so when PR would highlight them by using them mayors would rush out and pave them.

Those old cobbled roads were in much better shape than the farm tracks the race seeks out now - many of them were Route Nationales roads. The French pro Jean Stablinski, a rider local to the area, was asked by the organizers to find some new sections for the race to use as they were worried the race would die out due to the cobbles disappearing.

He knew of most of the brutish sections that form the last kilometers of the race as we know it and brought them to the organizers' attention. He knew of the Arenberg Forest section because he had worked below them in the coal mine. So from 1967 the race route gradually shifted east to take in the new cobbled sections and the race got a lot harder. The next three editions had average speeds between 36 and 38 kph. The avg speed dipped down as low as 36.3 kph in 1973.


So the race is a lot harder and the equipment better but the I think the over-riding factor in race average speeds is the weather. In a good year like 2017 you'll see the average above 45 kph and in a year with diabolical weather, like 1994, you'll see the average dip all the way down to 36.16 kph.

[saab2000]

Originally Posted by fiamme red

This photo from the 1974 Giro shows how hard the riders in an echelon are working.

https://twitter.com/davidguenel/stat...57587865649152

This is a phenomenal photo. Everyone who thinks racing in a crosswind is easy need look no further.

[tomato coupe]

Originally Posted by nooneline

counterpoint:if echelons weren't hard, then echelon racing wouldn't blow apart races. but it does.

Echelons don’t blow up a race because they’re hard to execute, they blow up a race because only a fraction of the riders in the peloton can fit across the road. The ones who can’t either end up stretched out in a single file (where they have no protection from the wind) or they form a second echelon. The second echelon often consists of weaker riders, and they may not be able to keep pace with the first echelon

[bicycletricycle]

Did you watch the video? Are you making a general point about riding in crosswinds or a specific comment about professionals not knowing how to ride in crosswinds?

Originally Posted by ultraman6970

Echelons arent hard to learn or ride on, the problem is that is a must technique that not many riders know.