Transgender cyclist Rachel McKinnon dominates as competitors raise questions - Page 4

Matthew · #46 10-21-2019, 11:59 PM

I get the human brain is complicated, etc. But you are born one or the other. And he is competing against those who weren't born with the same.

Louis · #47 10-22-2019, 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew

But you are born one or the other.

I'm no expert, but I can assure you that that is not how it works.

One example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermaphrodite

rustychisel · #48 10-22-2019, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew

I get the human brain is complicated, etc. But you are born one or the other. And he is competing against those who weren't born with the same.

Uh, no. That's totally incorrect. The vast majority "are born one or the other" yet a certain percentage have no idea where they sit, if gender were a sliding scale.
Some move toward the end where they feel comfortable, some never do. Some feel comfortable exactly where they are. What's so difficult to understand about that?

Matthew · #49 10-22-2019, 12:29 AM

But he was born a male. He is now competing against those born female. How he "feels" doesn't change the fact he may have physical advantages to the competition. But at least he hasn't won any Olympic medals or world championships as he states. Guessing the women who competed against him and lost in other races take little solace in that fact.

Louis · #50 10-22-2019, 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew

But he was born a male. He is now competing against those born female. How he "feels" doesn't change the fact he may have physical advantages to the competition.

I actually agree with you here, when it comes to the competition side of things.

The issue was when you said "If I was choosing to now be a woman I don't know how deep down inside I could actually think I was one." There you're confusing sex and gender, which these days are now considered to be two different things.

For example see this:

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/art...ex-differences

Edit: And also your statement that it's a binary world. It's way more complicated than that.

Matthew · #51 10-22-2019, 12:51 AM

I'm confused about lots of things these days in the world we live in Louis. Bottom line for me is I just don't think it's fair to the biological females he's racing. Probably better for me to just skip this thread from now on and debate whether I should keep my 26er or look for a 29er.

Louis · #52 10-22-2019, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew

Bottom line for me is I just don't think it's fair to the biological females

Agree about this.

(but not about calling her "him")

Matthew · #53 10-22-2019, 01:08 AM

Though I would like to see how the ladies here feel about this. We males can debate this all day long but it may be how they see it as most important.

ChristianWong · #54 10-22-2019, 01:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew

But he was born a male. He is now competing against those born female. How he "feels" doesn't change the fact he may have physical advantages to the competition. But at least he hasn't won any Olympic medals or world championships as he states. Guessing the women who competed against him and lost in other races take little solace in that fact.

I can speak to this a bit closer than some others in this thread as my brother is transgender. A lot of this topic is still new to me but mis-gendering someone as you've done in your post is incredibly offensive in this world. These men and women (and non-binary folk) are just trying to find their place. Being biologically male/female is separate from gender, please respect that at the very least.

When it comes to sport, I will not disagree that the waters are muddy. Rachel McKinnon is, as far as I'm aware, abiding by UCI rules. I don't know what the best solution is but I'm pretty sure it's not having separate trans male/female categories as this would alienate these people even further in society.

simonov · #55 10-22-2019, 04:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChristianWong

I can speak to this a bit closer than some others in this thread as my brother is transgender. A lot of this topic is still new to me but mis-gendering someone as you've done in your post is incredibly offensive in this world. These men and women (and non-binary folk) are just trying to find their place. Being biologically male/female is separate from gender, please respect that at the very least.

When it comes to sport, I will not disagree that the waters are muddy. Rachel McKinnon is, as far as I'm aware, abiding by UCI rules. I don't know what the best solution is but I'm pretty sure it's not having separate trans male/female categories as this would alienate these people even further in society.

Also, being clearly biologically male or female at birth is something that most take for granted, while there are many for whom gender, even biological (look up Intersex), is unclear from birth. And those who's clear cut biological gender feels like they're stuck in an alien body because it differs from their psychological identity. People who think that you're either a boy or a girl with matching anatomy and psychology should consider themselves lucky that their personal worldview is so clear cut and easy. For many people, it's not. And even a passing implication that these individuals may be motivated by anything other than a desire to live comfortably in their skin is offensive.

Davist · #56 10-22-2019, 04:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XXtwindad

This is not possessive. There should be no apostrophe here. .

no, it's not possessive, it's a verb contraction (like the it is contraction it's) he forgot the "a" Rachel is a woman becomes Rachel's a woman..

I don't have much to add, but I tend to think it's a bit of an advantage for her though, since the opposite isn't happening. It's master's track, how many people actually compete I wonder?

oldpotatoe · #57 10-22-2019, 06:16 AM

Quote:

Rachel McKinnon is, as far as I'm aware, abiding by UCI rules.

I think today, this is the bottom line. Same for those who, aided by their MD, can dance all around the substance use 'system'. If females(or anybody) is upset, then get the rules changed.

The second paragraph here is interesting..for those who think the simple 2X chromosomes vs XY chromosomes=a foolproof description of gender.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_sex...ination_system

Chris · #58 10-22-2019, 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlashUNC

Absent a more comprehensive overhaul of sport as we know it and suggestions about how to approach it in a way that is inclusive for everyone regardless of gender and sex, then the only solution I see is also the simplest one.

Maybe it's reductive and oversimplistic, but its the best solution I see today. Rachel's woman. She should get to race as one.

That's not the simplest solution. Identity is not reality from a physiological point of view and physiology is the key to sport. Again, I am happy to call Rachel whatever she wants to be called out of respect for her identity, but if sex and gender are different now, then sport should be separated by sex. It was always called the battle of the sexes anyway, not the battle of the genders. At some point we just have to be intellectually honest about the differences, physiologically, between sexes.

speedevil · #59 10-22-2019, 07:43 AM

Sport is already 100% inclusive, men and women can compete. You cannot be more inclusive than that.

The simplest solution is that you compete as a man or a woman, based on the sex marked on your original birth certificate.

If you don't want to do that, then you can compete for the town line sprint trophy.

R3awak3n · #60 10-22-2019, 08:06 AM

Sometimes I feel like I walk into a time machine when I come to this forum.

I could care less about the opinion of middle age dudes, what do women in the sport and women in general think about this?