What-a-ya think about the brochure??? (caution, Serotta content)

[William]

Originally Posted by jpw

"If you're not listening you're not learning" - and if you're not learning you're making the same mistakes, and smart people don't make the same mistake twice. I've met Ben only once. We had a short conversation. He seemed smart enough. He should be taking note. If he's not then he may as well call it Epilogue and go off and enjoy his golden years doing something else.

I got to talk with Ben Serotta a number of times at the factory and some email correspondence. May have even talked with him on the phone as well. That said I can't say I knew him, but I always came away from the conversations feeling that he was cordial and knew his stuff when it came to building. I've known a number of people over the years who were brilliant in one avenue or focus. That doesn't always correlate to other areas of expertise. We all know Ben could build them, but history has shown that the business/marketing side has not been his strong suit. Most people here want him to be successfull, but are seeing those same mistakes happening again. It doesn't instill confidence, at least not enough for a large enough group of people to shell out deposits. Especially when the question hangs out there...will he (or his new corporate entity) still be there to finish orders or support what he sells in the long term?

I hope he is successful.

Just my opinion, YMMV.





W.

[colker]

I may be completely wrong but i feel there is a market for a steel serotta CSI rebirth. Done in batches. Beautifull paint. Lugs. Steel fork. Traditional.
Built w/ campagnolo chorus or shimano Ultegra. A bike for the educated masses.

An entirely different direction from the custom butted titanium stratosphere. I don´t see the point in that market unless you build w/ your own hands w/ no employees.

[William]

Originally Posted by colker

I may be completely wrong but i feel there is a market for a steel serotta CSI rebirth. Done in batches. Beautifull paint. Lugs. Steel fork. Traditional.
Built w/ campagnolo chorus or shimano Ultegra. A bike for the educated masses.

An entirely different direction from the custom butted titanium stratosphere. I don´t see the point in that market unless you build w/ your own hands w/ no employees.

If memory serves, I think he tried something like that. You could count the number of people who signed on with one hand. Please correct me if I'm wrong, that's just what I seem to remember.





W.

[Hilltopperny]

Originally Posted by William

If memory serves, I think he tried something like that. You could count the number of people who signed on with one hand. Please correct me if I'm wrong, that's just what I seem to remember.





W.

The Amodomio was a tig welded steel bike with a high price tag and was only available with an etap group.

I think if he did a lugged steel bike with a more utilitarian group option and a lower price tag it would likely do better.

I owned a Ben built filet brazed tandem and the metal work was extremely high quality. As good as any high end steel frame I have had pass through.


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[William]

Originally Posted by Hilltopperny

The Amodomio was a tig welded steel bike with a high price tag and was only available with an etap group.

I think if he did a lugged steel bike with a more utilitarian group option and a lower price tag it would likely do better.

I owned a Ben built filet brazed tandem and the metal work was extremely high quality. As good as any high end steel frame I have had pass through.


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I'm thinking of when Serotta was still open and focused on Ti and CF. A lot of people said they still wanted the steel CSI. He came out and said he would do (possibly an Anniversary run) a run of them. There was a lot of nostalgia talking but only a few people actually stepped up. I think it would be cool but again, how many people would actually step up to buy one? Hard to say, but most of the money being spent out there right now for new rides is going to CF and Ti.








W.

[colker]

Originally Posted by William

If memory serves, I think he tried something like that. You could count the number of people who signed on with one hand. Please correct me if I'm wrong, that's just what I seem to remember.





W.

Serotta is a name w/ story and tradition. Translates well to a high quality bike w/ story and traditional building methods. Do it as an affordable package. Build it in a shop in the US. Sell it at 3k w/105 or Sram and see what happens.

[colker]

Originally Posted by William

I'm thinking of when Serotta was still open and focused on Ti and CF. A lot of people said they still wanted the steel CSI. He came out and said he would do (possibly an Anniversary run) a run of them. There was a lot of nostalgia talking but only a few people actually stepped up. I think it would be cool but again, how many people would actually step up to buy one? Hard to say, but most of the money being spent out there right now for new rides is going to CF and Ti.








W.

My instagram is filled w/ steel bikes. Radavist is all over steel bikes. If there is a Serotta race bike that could fit 700x30 tires.. that could fly.

[R56Blues]

Originally Posted by William

Interesting point that makes sense on its face. I can't think of a reason why its okay to have two reinforced holes in a tube but it's not okay to do one for wiring? We've also had holes drilled into top tubes to run brake cables, holes in bottom brackets to drain moisture, holes in chain stays as well.











W.

From an engineering standpoint a hole in a frame can be a weak spot if impacted, but like you state there are holes in nearly all frames. And old trick to stop a crack in a metal part is to drill a small hole at one or both ends. This redstributes the stress and stops the cracking. Ben must have another reason to run the cable externally. One of life's mysteries......

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[William]

Originally Posted by colker

My instagram is filled w/ steel bikes. Radavist is all over steel bikes. If there is a Serotta race bike that could fit 700x30 tires.. that could fly.

I'm not saying you are wrong, just pointing out that there is often a gap between what people say they want, and what they are actually willing to do.

As I said before, I hope he is successful.





W.

[William]

Originally Posted by R56Blues

From an engineering standpoint a hole in a frame can be a weak spot if impacted, but like you state there are holes in nearly all frames. And old trick to stop a crack in a metal part is to drill a small hole at one or both ends. This redstributes the stress and stops the cracking. Ben must have another reason to run the cable externally. One of life's mysteries......

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Very true.




W.

[Hilltopperny]

Originally Posted by William

I'm thinking of when Serotta was still open and focused on Ti and CF. A lot of people said they still wanted the steel CSI. He came out and said he would do (possibly an Anniversary run) a run of them. There was a lot of nostalgia talking but only a few people actually stepped up. I think it would be cool but again, how many people would actually step up to buy one? Hard to say, but most of the money being spent out there right now for new rides is going to CF and Ti.








W.

Oh yeah. I was thinking of the more recent reboot. I loved my Atlanta and CSI. The Atlanta was what sent me down the Handbuilt rabbit hole!

Carbon and titanium are definitely all I currently own at this stage, but steel does still have its merits as well.


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[FlashUNC]

Originally Posted by colker

Serotta is a name w/ story and tradition. Translates well to a high quality bike w/ story and traditional building methods. Do it as an affordable package. Build it in a shop in the US. Sell it at 3k w/105 or Sram and see what happens.

You're asking the consumer to pay double at that point for what's basically a CAAD 12 that they could walk out of any local shop.

No, Ben's at least right in the sense that the high end of the market is where his customers are playing. He's never going to win a volume game.

There's companies doing a far, far better job appealing to that market segment right now, and there's no compelling brand differentiation other than "a team you might have heard of nigh on 35 years ago rode their bikes. But didn't ride their bikes to a Giro win, because those kept breaking, so it was a Landshark under Smilin Andy that day."

It's not a good sign when you're trying to sell gravel bikes that your brand hero shots are of Davis Phinney.

I'm 1000% sure there's a good product in there, but ultimately the brand presentation is horrid. He needs better marketing people yesterday.

[David Kirk]

Originally Posted by alexihnen

I find the definition of success offered here by many to be rather...odd. Sure, one measure of success is still being in business, that’s simple enough. But to claim someone like Ben Serotta has failed because he didn’t follow a boutique artisan builder who sold perhaps 1% or fewer of the bikes Serotta produced...well, that makes no sense at all. Some guy with a slick website and cult following who produces maybe 20 bikes a year is successful. The guy who built a significant company that put out nothing but high quality rides in the thousands for decades is a failure. Some artisan builders have no desire to sell thousands of bikes and have others holding the torch, and that’s fine. They are successful in their right, but dozens of not hundreds of builders scrape for business and dream of having the success of Serotta. I don’t understand a world where Ben isn’t considered one of the most successful American bike builders of the past 40 years.


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I couldn't agree more strongly. I've heard Ben and his company called a failure and I just don't see it. He provided world class bikes to happy customers for 40 years and provided good jobs at good pay to so many people during that time....people that got married and bought homes and raised kids on the money they made working at Serotta. How can you beat that? Forty years.

Success can surely be measured in oh so many ways. I never wanted to go down the path that Ben did - those shoes just don't fit me. But I've kept the lights on for over 17 years and enjoyed myself. If i shut it down now will I be a 'failure'?

I wish the Ben the very best luck in his new venture. He understands what makes a bike ride well better than 98% of the other companies out there putting out bikes and I'll bet his new offerings make for a wonderful ride.

dave

[David Kirk]

Originally Posted by AngryScientist

with regard to drilling holes in butted tubes:

every bicycle in the history of the world has come with water bottle cage mounts right in the middle of the tubes, so i just dont buy that it's not a good idea to do that. simple reinforcements in that area are easy and can be aesthetically pleasing:

Unfortunately the bottle boss vs. internal brake routing is an apples-to-oranges comparison. Bottle bosses are in such a low stressed area that you can drill a 1/4" hole there and not even put a bottle boss in it (let along a reinforcement plate) and it will last a lifetime. The plates on bottle bosses are usually just for the traditional look.

Drilling a much larger oval hole at the upper end of the down tube is a completely different deal. Filling the hole with an internal tube goes some ways toward making it whole again but not all the way. Adding a plate on top of that can help but all the head needed to get that that stuff welded in place causes its own problems.

I have people ask me to put internal brake housing in a 953 down tube and the answer is always a firm 'no'. The risks are very high and I like sleeping at night knowing that I will not see a DT fail causing an injured rider. I'll do it on some other tubes that are thicker but not on 953.

I can see his logic on this one.....fashion be damned.

dave

[happycampyer]

Originally Posted by alexihnen

I find the definition of success offered here by many to be rather...odd. Sure, one measure of success is still being in business, that’s simple enough. But to claim someone like Ben Serotta has failed because he didn’t follow a boutique artisan builder who sold perhaps 1% or fewer of the bikes Serotta produced...well, that makes no sense at all. Some guy with a slick website and cult following who produces maybe 20 bikes a year is successful. The guy who built a significant company that put out nothing but high quality rides in the thousands for decades is a failure. Some artisan builders have no desire to sell thousands of bikes and have others holding the torch, and that’s fine. They are successful in their right, but dozens of not hundreds of builders scrape for business and dream of having the success of Serotta. I don’t understand a world where Ben isn’t considered one of the most successful American bike builders of the past 40 years.


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As I noted above, this discussion isn’t about the past, it’s about the present. I couldn’t agree with you more that Serotta was a dominant force in the cycling industry for ~40 years, and introduced dozens of innovations that many builders have adopted (often decades after Serotta). I would argue that the Legend is still one of the most refined and advanced titanium frames ever made and, as much as people belly ached Serotta’s pricing, no builder today makes a titanium frame with all of the refinements of a Legend, and yet the prices of their frames have surpassed those of a Legend.

I own a custom Meivici, a few Ottrotts, a custom all-ti Legend (as well as Tim P’s cast-off S&S-coupled Legend ST and Scott Hock’s custom-deluxe singlespeed Legend), a Pronto (bought on “close-out”), and a CSi. How many Serottas do you own and, if you do own one or more, how many did you buy new? In theory, I and several others here are the customers that Ben is looking to line up to sell one these precious 100 frames to. And there are things about these frames that are very appealing to me, like the Colorado Concept(-esque) tubing. But I would like to know who is fabricating the frames, since Ben sure as you-know-what isn’t. Is it Andy Keech? That would be a big plus in my book, knowing that one of the most talented former welders at Serotta (and Kelly Bedford’s welder) was behind the torch. Could Ben have snagged some of the experienced welders that Moots and Seven have displaced? That would be great, too. Given how Ben (or the people who ran Serotta (into the ground) at the end) f’d over the team that ended up at No. 22, it certain isn’t them. Kent Eriksen was never coy about who welded his frames, and neither was Tom Kellogg (e.g., Seven for ti for the last stage of Spectrum). Steve Hampsten is another example of someone who has worked with top ti welders for fabrication. For all I know, these are made by the factory that makes Walty frames.

As far as internal cable routing goes, I’m sorry, but that is a total red herring imo. Yes, it adds a little weight, and yes, it’s mainly an aesthetic thing, but offer it as an option with an upcharge, as many builders do. As Angry noted, builders have drilled holes (in the thinnest part of a butted tube, if the tube is butted) for decades and they haven’t exploded. For years, Serotta and Seven used pop rivets—I think Seven might still, but Serotta figured out how to weld reinforced bosses in later years à la Moots and many others. Granted, brake and Di2 ports are in a higher stress area, but adjust the butt length if necessary. The I-know-better-than-everyone-else attitude that Ben and (especially) Rob V have is tiresome. The pot-shot at Firefly’s adaptive butting in the brochure is gratuitous. I’ve heard that, in the midst of a bike boom—and from all indications a custom bike boom—Seven recently laid off a bunch of people. Could it be that Seven’s unwillingness to adapt with the market is hurting business? Even Moots has come around. How did the guys who built Serottas for a decade or more suddenly figure out how to internally route cables within weeks of Serotta closing its doors? Mosaic, Firefly, Baum—not exactly fly-by-night, inexperience welders.

And as far as Ben goes, I have met and spoken to him at several events (at the factory for a Tour of Battenkill shindig, several events at Signature Cycles and more recently, at NAHBS Hartford for his last Act II), and he is very personable and engaging. He is without doubt one of the pioneers of modern frame building.

I hope Ben is reading this. People like Paul, Tim and me are his lifeline. We probably collectively own 20 or more Serottas. Ben doesn’t know me by name, but he recognizes me when he sees me, and knows that I am someone who has bought multiple Serottas. Serotta is reentering a crowded and very mature space, and imo needs to offer a product that goes toe-to-toe with the best available (never mind that the best available is 80% of a Legend). Give us a reason to buy another.