Rivendell saved for now...

[marciero]

It's one thing to have an idea-"wider tires on a road-ish bike"- or even design some bikes and parts, and another to refine or revise designs and articulate/advocate/promote/market a clear vision that resonates in the market. There are some famous examples in business where the successful visionary was not the same person who conceived the idea.
(The phenomenon where a person whose name is associated with an idea or a result is not the person who came up with it is so common that it has a Murphy's Law-type of name, which escapes me at the moment.)

If the gravel/all-road segment can be thought of simplistically as combining wide-tires, road bikes, and high performance designs, then I think the early precursors mentioned here lacked, missed, or in Grant's case, were not interested in, the high-performance aspect, which may have been the key to making the category resonate with buyers.

[Joe Remi]

Originally Posted by charliedid

!988 even if I recall on the RnR and maybe a year before. I moved back to Chicago in 88' and got a job in the industry from a guy who had one. Both sets of handlebars and everything. :-) Not sure why I never bought one but my wife rides a BG touring bike.

The reason I really think BG kicked it all off as a category is that his bikes were designed to get off the beaten path and do some exploring beyond the main routes. We all come to this from our own experiences and context. There is probably some French person reading this saying....hey we designed that bike in the 1940's!

Bikes

Ah, I forgot about the swappable bars, that was cool!

[Joe Remi]

Originally Posted by marciero

It's one thing to have an idea-"wider tires on a road-ish bike"- or even design some bikes and parts, and another to refine or revise designs and articulate/advocate/promote/market a clear vision that resonates in the market. There are some famous examples in business where the successful visionary was not the same person who conceived the idea.
(The phenomenon where a person whose name is associated with an idea or a result is not the person who came up with it is so common that it has a Murphy's Law-type of name, which escapes me at the moment.)

If the gravel/all-road segment can be thought of simplistically as combining wide-tires, road bikes, and high performance designs, then I think the early precursors mentioned here lacked, missed, or in Grant's case, were not interested in, the high-performance aspect, which may have been the key to making the category resonate with buyers.

Of course my example of early-'90s hybrids is a stretch - it was meant somewhat tongue in cheek - but the RnR, Bridgestone XO-1, Rivendell All Rounder and LongLow were all high performance gravel bikes. They just weren't called that.

[mbrtool]

Marciero, excellent insight

Ray

[rwsaunders]

Originally Posted by sjbraun

GP replied to a thread on this same topic running on the RBW Owners group forum.

"We "crowdsourced" store credits---not donations--- at a critical time for us, and if you contributed and haven't bought anything, your credit remains on the books. We've never asked for outright donations, and I wouldn't do that. Many businesses--from wholesalers like Trek, etc---and virtually all local bike shops--buy "on terms"--with 30 to 120 days to pay for the inventory. This is how we buy small parts, but anything that comes from Japan, we pay in 1 week before we receive it, and anything from Taiwan--bikes, cranks--we pay 60 days before we receive it. This is not something we can negotiate. Tubing suppliers, painters, allthose guys have to be paid and don't offer payment terms to small guys like us. In any case, it is a formula for horrible cash flow, which is our main angst.

When I say this stuff, it comes off as whining. I think everybody should do (1) restaurant work; and (2) own a small business...for the perspective.

Our customers are excellent. Our critics are relatively few. Our team is wonderful. I am not a crackerjack business manager, and that -- not our people, bikes, or intentions--will be what kills us. "Just hire a business manager" presumes things that aren't true.

If anybody would like to criticize or advise me directly, it's easy. (925) 933-7304 usually between 10:15 am and 4pm west time (I work mornings from home). Or email gr...@rivbike.com."

Interesting read...thanks for sharing.

[charliedid]

Originally Posted by marciero

It's one thing to have an idea-"wider tires on a road-ish bike"- or even design some bikes and parts, and another to refine or revise designs and articulate/advocate/promote/market a clear vision that resonates in the market. There are some famous examples in business where the successful visionary was not the same person who conceived the idea.
(The phenomenon where a person whose name is associated with an idea or a result is not the person who came up with it is so common that it has a Murphy's Law-type of name, which escapes me at the moment.)

If the gravel/all-road segment can be thought of simplistically as combining wide-tires, road bikes, and high performance designs, then I think the early precursors mentioned here lacked, missed, or in Grant's case, were not interested in, the high-performance aspect, which may have been the key to making the category resonate with buyers.

Some real truth to what you say, but let's be fair and say "performance" is not always associated with racing. Ever do any long distance riding on or off road?

Excellent point and you know what I mean.

[Ed-B]

Originally Posted by marciero

If the gravel/all-road segment can be thought of simplistically as combining wide-tires, road bikes, and high performance designs, then I think the early precursors mentioned here lacked, missed, or in Grant's case, were not interested in, the high-performance aspect, which may have been the key to making the category resonate with buyers.

I agree, this was clearly my observation when the 650B wheeled all-road/country bikes came back in the 2004 timeframe - especially your point about high performance designs.

The model was based on 1950's French randonneuring, and what was current technology wasn't part of the formula. These early 650B bikes were almost all made from steel, had threaded steering tubes, and rim brakes. The performance road market was carbon, titanium, threadless, integrated controls, etc., and the early 650B bikes were never going to leave their little niche with those older technologies. The Kogswell P/R had a threadless steering tube, and a Rawland model had discs, but those products didn't survive.

While people have ridden mixed surfaces on road oriented bikes for decades, I think the gravel market as we see it today began to gain momentum when disc brakes fitted to bikes with other modern technologies became commercially available.

To bring this back to the main topic of our discussion, I think that Rivendell can capitalize on this market segment by offering a frameset or complete bike that appeals to a larger base of buyers - those of us who appreciate a lightweight and responsive steel bike built with some classic styling elements, sport-oriented geometry and riding position, and the performance and convenience of modern technologies. Make it in Taiwan, with disc brakes, room for 650B and big 700C tires, a threadless 1-1/8" fork with a flat fork crown. Give it some Rivendell/Bridgestone heritage; paint, logos, naming, lugs, silver annodized components, Nitto bar, stem, and seatpost, whatever fits the model and pricepoint. Offer a modern drivetrain with integrated controls. Create a modern interpretation of the bikes we identify with Grant Petersen design; the RB-T, Rambouillet, XO-1, whatever. I know that I would consider such a frame or bike.

Put this bike front and center on the web site

I think it would help Rivendell expand into the mainstream gravel market, regain some of their lost customer base, increase product sales revenue, and yet maintain the identity of the company.

[dancinkozmo]

^ i dunno , a baby bike with custom bar end shifters makes more sense to me

[Joe Remi]

Ed B, you're going to get most of that with the new mtb-ish bike, but discs remain a sticking point. I brought it up enough times to be (even more) annoying (than usual), but it's never going to happen. I think it'll be a fun road/trail 650B bike with a threadless steerer and whatever newfangled 1x you want to run, but it'll use v-brakes.

[wkeller79]

Originally Posted by Ed-B

To bring this back to the main topic of our discussion, I think that Rivendell can capitalize on this market segment by offering a frameset or complete bike that appeals to a larger base of buyers - those of us who appreciate a lightweight and responsive steel bike built with some classic styling elements, sport-oriented geometry and riding position, and the performance and convenience of modern technologies. Make it in Taiwan, with disc brakes, room for 650B and big 700C tires, a threadless 1-1/8" fork with a flat fork crown. Give it some Rivendell/Bridgestone heritage; paint, logos, naming, lugs, silver annodized components, Nitto bar, stem, and seatpost, whatever fits the model and pricepoint. Offer a modern drivetrain with integrated controls. Create a modern interpretation of the bikes we identify with Grant Petersen design; the RB-T, Rambouillet, XO-1, whatever. I know that I would consider such a frame or bike.

Put this bike front and center on the web site

I think it would help Rivendell expand into the mainstream gravel market, regain some of their lost customer base, increase product sales revenue, and yet maintain the identity of the company.

I wholeheartedly agree, Ed-B

[hokoman]

Originally Posted by Ed-B

To bring this back to the main topic of our discussion, I think that Rivendell can capitalize on this market segment by offering a frameset or complete bike that appeals to a larger base of buyers - those of us who appreciate a lightweight and responsive steel bike built with some classic styling elements, sport-oriented geometry and riding position, and the performance and convenience of modern technologies. Make it in Taiwan, with disc brakes, room for 650B and big 700C tires, a threadless 1-1/8" fork with a flat fork crown. Give it some Rivendell/Bridgestone heritage; paint, logos, naming, lugs, silver annodized components, Nitto bar, stem, and seatpost, whatever fits the model and pricepoint. Offer a modern drivetrain with integrated controls. Create a modern interpretation of the bikes we identify with Grant Petersen design; the RB-T, Rambouillet, XO-1, whatever. I know that I would consider such a frame or bike.

Put this bike front and center on the web site

I think it would help Rivendell expand into the mainstream gravel market, regain some of their lost customer base, increase product sales revenue, and yet maintain the identity of the company.

+100% I typed multiple messages, but kept deleting them. I think Matt at Crust Bikes has taken a simple approach to the new fad - and Riv could learn something from this new brand. I could be the ideal Riv customer - having spent 90% of my riding time split on my Romanceur and Rock Lobster touring bike this past year. The other 10% was a mix of Meivici and GT1. I like the classic looks of the steel bikes, but the comforts and function of modern technology. It's about the ride not the race for me. I'm actually considering a new custom built specifically for my new type of slow, comfortable riding.

But back to the economics - I would not wish anyone to have to carry a financial weight on their shoulders for 25 years. I've written business plans to do random things I enjoy, but never had the b@lls to actually do them - but I know that cash flow is KING (unless you're loaded and this is a hobby, and part of reservation is that I know I would make emotional and not business decisions.

[Ed-B]

Originally Posted by Joe Remi

Ed B, you're going to get most of that with the new mtb-ish bike, but discs remain a sticking point. I brought it up enough times to And be (even more) annoying (than usual), but it's never going to happen. I think it'll be a fun road/trail 650B bike with a threadless steerer and whatever newfangled 1x you want to run, but it'll use v-brakes.

I can't understand the resistance to disc brakes. Oh sure, hydraulic discs are more complicated - even if they are superior. But cable operated discs are effective and simple enough for that Rivendell ethos. And a customer could always opt to go hydro if the bike is based on disc technology. But rim brakes are dead for anything except road bikes, and their presence is diminishing there, too. This is a market-limiting spec, for sure.

[Joe Remi]

Analog Cycles is an interesting experiment in merging the philosophies of Crust and Riv as they sell both lines. My favorite Riv builds lately have been the 1x's with huge pie-plate cassettes James and Candice have been doing.

Tangential note: I bought a Crust Lighting Bolt with Paul Klampers from them last year. Super fun and beautiful bike, but I couldn't get used to low-trail steering. I sold it, but I love what Matt is doing at Crust.

[Bostic]

In my humble opinion Mike at Black Mountain Cycles gets it.

[charliedid]

Originally Posted by Ed-B

I agree, this was clearly my observation when the 650B wheeled all-road/country bikes came back in the 2004 timeframe - especially your point about high performance designs.

The model was based on 1950's French randonneuring, and what was current technology wasn't part of the formula. These early 650B bikes were almost all made from steel, had threaded steering tubes, and rim brakes. The performance road market was carbon, titanium, threadless, integrated controls, etc., and the early 650B bikes were never going to leave their little niche with those older technologies. The Kogswell P/R had a threadless steering tube, and a Rawland model had discs, but those products didn't survive.

While people have ridden mixed surfaces on road oriented bikes for decades, I think the gravel market as we see it today began to gain momentum when disc brakes fitted to bikes with other modern technologies became commercially available.

To bring this back to the main topic of our discussion, I think that Rivendell can capitalize on this market segment by offering a frameset or complete bike that appeals to a larger base of buyers - those of us who appreciate a lightweight and responsive steel bike built with some classic styling elements, sport-oriented geometry and riding position, and the performance and convenience of modern technologies. Make it in Taiwan, with disc brakes, room for 650B and big 700C tires, a threadless 1-1/8" fork with a flat fork crown. Give it some Rivendell/Bridgestone heritage; paint, logos, naming, lugs, silver annodized components, Nitto bar, stem, and seatpost, whatever fits the model and pricepoint. Offer a modern drivetrain with integrated controls. Create a modern interpretation of the bikes we identify with Grant Petersen design; the RB-T, Rambouillet, XO-1, whatever. I know that I would consider such a frame or bike.

Put this bike front and center on the web site

I think it would help Rivendell expand into the mainstream gravel market, regain some of their lost customer base, increase product sales revenue, and yet maintain the identity of the company.

Yes

I don't even think they need or should be lugged. I think this bike line should be a separate entity from Rivendell store and retail business.

Give the line a new name, let someone else drive (with Grant's blessing and input of course) the branding and marketing and put a bunch of Instagram happy millenials and elders on them and send them out like the Latter Day Saints. They already have an audience with the Radavist crowd. I might even try and get them into a couple dozen shops around the country and Japan.

With a plan like this to sell 2500-5000 bikes a year at $800 (complete build) per bike at wholesale grossing 2ml to 5ml a year could attract a real investor or two. A couple of these would be Performance bikes and some might even carry a child. I also think he should have been selling longtails five or six years ago but that's another deal. In a few seasons he could sell 10K bikes world wide no problem IMO.

This would be so much easier for Grant than an upstart given the years in the biz and the name recognition that already exists. We are talking bikes in $1500 range retail complete. While that may seem like a cheap bike to some here and for a Rivendell, but that is twice as much as the average person wants to pay for a bike in the US.

He should be able to sell at least half of them direct at retail. Even better. Sure he would need a million bucks to do this and sure even Bruce Gordon went to Taiwan but struggled to sell the cheaper bikes, but I dare say hundreds of thousands of people know Rivendell and like 250 people know who BG is. I'm kidding but you get my point. Instead of consulting on SOMA bikes he should have been the one designing and selling them himself.

Rivendell the place and the idea doesn't need to go anywhere or change. Even the soap and axes because like it or not that is part of what made Riv Riv. What needs to change is the process in which bikes are conceived, designed, manufactured and distributed. For the basic line anyway. Grant could maybe still sell fancy bikes but Grant's not a bike builder and I don't know how long that can go on the way he tries to make and sell them. Who knows maybe he hires a builder or two in house at some point but I'd hang that side up if it were me.

I always thought it would be fun to work for Riv and almost pursued it back in the mid 90's but life gets in the way.

Grant, if you are reading this, think big, think different and go out and find some $ and a new way to do business.

Happy New Year.