Fixed by new fork: How to make a Landshark more stable/less squirmy?

[Peter P.]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

You don't say what type of wheel it is, but those tensions are actually fairly typical for an 11spd wheel. .... I doubt that the spoke tension is the cause of your handling issue.

I agree. If the wheel is dished correctly at those tensions, then increasing tension on the NDS spokes is only going to un-dish the wheel.

Just for kicks, try borrowing another rear wheel for a test before you spend the time tweaking spokes.

And if you really want more even left/right spoke tension on a rear wheel, use a rim with an offset spoke bed. That's all I build my wheels with, and the concept results in much better wheels.

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

You don't say what type of wheel it is, but those tensions are actually fairly typical for an 11spd wheel. Spoke tension should be even, but the tension differential is determined purely by geometry. If the DS tension is supposed to be 120 kgf, you're not going to get the NDS spokes any tighter. I doubt that the spoke tension is the cause of your handling issue.

Agree...if the spoke tension on the right side is 120kgf..the 'left' pretty much takes care of itself..as in, that tension, depending on hub flanges, rim, look pretty normal. As long as the wheel is dished(assuming it is)..

But mentioned..could be thin spokes and maybe too few on a on a light rim..In spite of all the marketing, CXRays aren't the best choice in a lot of wheel builds.

Could not see picture..asked for a 'google' sign in..

[tv_vt]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

In spite of all the marketing, CXRays aren't the best choice in a lot of wheel builds.

Could not see picture..asked for a 'google' sign in..

That was my experience, with the spokes, and with the Google sign-in.

[proletariandan]

Thanks again for all of the responses, folks.

So the shop said the frame is aligned and the only thing they found 'wrong' was the front wheel out of dish slightly and the bearing pre-load a little loose but fixing those had no appreciable affect on the handling. I also tried a different front wheel tire from my girlfriend's bike.

The strange thing is that I also switched gravel bikes around the same time as I switched road bikes (going from a 2018 Stigmata to a custom Rock Lobster) and didn't have any issues with the new bike feeling different.

I pulled the fork again but there definitely isn't any serial or rake anywhere on it - maybe it was painted over.

One thing that keeps coming back to me is that the problem seems to have gotten worse over the few months I've been riding this bike. If nothing was wrong, you'd at least think I would have adjusted to the new bike rather than it seeming to get worse. Could the fork somehow be damaged and degrading in ride quality without showing any visible signs?

The million $$$ question is do y'all think it is worth dropping $200 on a newish 40mm offset Ouzo? I guess that is probably my only option for having peace of mind and not just flipping this beauty with a disclaimer.

[Peter P.]

Originally Posted by proletariandan

Thanks again for all of the responses, folks.

So the shop said the frame is aligned ... this beauty with a disclaimer.

Wait a minute; the shop checked the frame alignment-didn't they check the fork?

If they're capable of checking frame alignment, they should be able to check fork alignment and measure the fork rake for you.

You sure they're qualified to check frame alignment?

[Peter P.]

Double post. Deleted.

[proletariandan]

Originally Posted by Peter P.

Wait a minute; the shop checked the frame alignment-didn't they check the fork?

Did they tell you what the head angle is?

If they're capable of checking frame alignment, they should be able to check fork alignment and measure the fork rake for you, and measure the head angle. Any less and I'd question their skill set.

You sure they're qualified to check frame alignment?

No idea, they were recommended as a shop by locals I trust but if anyone in the Bay (ideally East) has another suggestion I might let another place have a look before giving up and getting a new fork.

They said they didn't have a way to measure the fork rake accurately...

[Peter P.]

My other suspicion is the fork is the wrong LENGTH for the frame.

Forks are designed with a specific "axle to crown" length in mind and sor are frames. It's quite possible the fork you have is too long/short, changing the head angle and the trail figure to something incompatible with the frame.

I'd contact John Slawta at Landshark and see if he can confirm the Ouzo Pro is a good match or if the frame was designed with a different axle to crown length in mind.

[proletariandan]

Originally Posted by Peter P.

My other suspicion is the fork is the wrong LENGTH for the frame.

Forks are designed with a specific "axle to crown" length in mind and sor are frames. It's quite possible the fork you have is too long/short, changing the head angle and the trail figure to something incompatible with the frame.

I'd contact John Slawta at Landshark and see if he can confirm the Ouzo Pro is a good match or if the frame was designed with a different axle to crown length in mind.

I actually called him today and he said he didn't remember that frame. It is painted to match so I assume it is the original fork - I've seen a number of his frames from the era with Ouzos, including one that I bought here.

[mhespenheide]

Originally Posted by proletariandan

No idea, they were recommended as a shop by locals I trust but if anyone in the Bay (ideally East) has another suggestion I might let another place have a look before giving up and getting a new fork.

They said they didn't have a way to measure the fork rake accurately...

Maybe Eric Billings at Billings Cycle Works in Oakland? He builds and repairs frames. Better known over on Instagram, but he has some web presence:
https://www.billingscycleworks.com/contact

Along the same lines, Mikkelsen in Alameda used to do frame building and repairs. I don't know if he/they are still active.

[glepore]

I think you're comparing apples to oranges. A well designed carbon bike with an enve fork is pretty much a sharp knife. A steel bike with a more compliant fork, even a good one like an ouzo, is less "sharp" which has its advantages in ride quality etc but it is probably less precise.

I'm not an enve fanboy, and their forks can make a poorly designed bike feel harsh in the front, but they really carve if they're the correct fork to crown and trail.

[lemondvictoire]

What wheelset is on the bike? Try swapping a different front wheel.....

[benb]

Everyone is thinking you've got your weight far forward due to the saddle position on the rails and the long stem but I think it's hard to tell.

I'd get someone who really knows what they're doing to put you and the bike up on a fit setup that can measure fore/aft weight balance.

To me the saddle looks hard to evaluate in one picture and with you not on the bike because you've got a setback post and the seat tube angle looks slack.

You combine that with a long frame & a long stem and you think you've got your weight far enough forward but in reality you don't.. your arms are just stretched way out.

I see the same kind of issues with one of my bikes that's basically too big and has a slack STA. I can put as long of a stem as I want on it and it doesn't matter at all if the position of the saddle is too far back. I have mostly rode it with a 2.5cm setback post and some saddles I can have the saddle slammed all the way forward and it's still too far back. If I get out of the saddle all of it goes away!

When I got said bike I really struggled with it at first.. I tend to want to slam my position back and it absolutely doesn't work with that bike.. (it's got a slack front end too)

Pictures can lie and so I'm not saying this is definitely a factor... but the picture makes it looks like the back of the saddle is right over the rear wheel... a pretty rearward position. It might be worth looking at.

I eventually did do a fit session where my front/rear weight balance was measured along with the standard position of the knee and such and as long as I keep my saddle forward in that range that particular bike now handles with zero instability or shake.

[proletariandan]

I finally tried to measure the fork offset myself using the 180* swivel method and am getting 41mm. I could easily be off by 1mm but seems like going to a 40mm rake fork alone won't make much of a difference

[Peter P.]

Originally Posted by proletariandan

I finally tried to measure the fork offset myself using the 180* swivel method and am getting 41mm. I could easily be off by 1mm but seems like going to a 40mm rake fork alone won't make much of a difference

Smart move and good job!

Now get that fork and frame spec'd out and checked for alignment by a pro!

As benb mentions above, the specs of the frame could be the issue. Having real, accurate numbers on the frame geometry may shed some light on this problem, as will an alignment check.