OT - Pennsylvania abuses.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by johnmdesigner

I don't know of any organized religion that doesn't preach absolute acceptance of their doctrine or else the member faces eternal damnation.

Surely, you don't include the Unitarian Universalist church. Not only do they accept spiritual concepts from a wide range of other religions, they even accept atheism!

[joosttx]

Originally Posted by AngryScientist

I agree Chris, and that's the main reason i didnt close the thread. We should be able to separate our outrage from the point that this institution happens to be a religious one. the way i see it, it is not much different than if ABC or NBC was protecting a news anchor who is a known sexual predator instead of allowing them to be prosecuted under the law.

Nick, I get what you are saying but the Grand Jury identified over 1000 victims (children) and systemic coverup to protect the institution and perps. It seems to be more sinister than a corporate cover up of top dogs sexual predation.

[AngryScientist]

Originally Posted by joosttx

Nick,

I get what you are saying but the Grand Jury identified over 1000 victims (children) and systemic coverup to protect the institution and perps.

agree 100%.

just saying that i think we can discuss this here without it necessarily being a "religious" debate. The actual scale of what has been allowed to happen is absolutely disgusting to me.

[GregL]

Originally Posted by Chris

I didn't mean any offense toward PA. My point was that this last episode of such disgusting behavior has pushed me over the edge. PA just happened to be where the news came from. You're in the clear now because Philly parishes were not in on the investigations...

From my perspective, this is actually a positive for the good state of Pennsylvania. Their elected and appointed officials took the step to deeply investigate heinous crimes. I hope other states take a good look at what has been done in PA and follow the same investigative path.

Greg

[fignon's barber]

Originally Posted by goonster

No one expected that.

Monty Python?

[johnmdesigner]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

Surely, you don't include the Unitarian Universalist church. Not only do they accept spiritual concepts from a wide range of other religions, they even accept atheism!

I stand corrected. Thank you!

[paredown]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

Surely, you don't include the Unitarian Universalist church. Not only do they accept spiritual concepts from a wide range of other religions, they even accept atheism!

Yeah, it's the old joke:
Q. What do the Unitarians believe in?
A. Everything

One of the other flash points of the Reformation was the claim that celibacy was compulsory for the priesthood, which is still Catholic dogma today (regardless of how many stray from the path.)

Hence Luther's famous "Better to marry than to burn." [in Hell I presume.]

[redir]

Originally Posted by johnmdesigner

I don't know of any organized religion that doesn't preach absolute acceptance of their doctrine or else the member faces eternal damnation.
That includes the Roman Catholic Church.
Luther condemned Pope Leo's practice of selling forgiveness for your sins (indulgences) for a monetary payment used to build St. Peter's.
Seems like a reasonable grievance.

That's not true of Catholicism. And I know this from 12 years of Catholic education. Believe me they have an 'excuse' for jsut about everything. The excuse for non-Catholics which would include any of the other major/minor religions and believe it or not even atheists is that if it is of no fault of their own that they have not found that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life, and that no one comes to the father except through him, in other words if they were born in a Muslim or Jewish household and followed the teachings of their own religion it would be a mistake so to speak or of no fault of their own, then God through this mysterious excuse known as grace, might grant them admission to the amusement park in the sky.

Even if it is through a fault of their own, like for example a baptized Catholic who converts to Islam, a Catholic is always taught to never judge and that God is the only one who truly can. And even in such case might 'grace' this person.

[shinomaster]

When Martin Luther went to Rome in the 1500's he was appalled by what he saw. The priests were debaucherous and had little boys jumping out of cakes. They didn't believe what they were preaching and did it to amass wealth. The church has always been corrupt. You could be a Lutheran?

[johnmdesigner]

Originally Posted by redir

That's not true of Catholicism. And I know this from 12 years of Catholic education. Believe me they have an 'excuse' for jsut about everything. The excuse for non-Catholics which would include any of the other major/minor religions and believe it or not even atheists is that if it is of no fault of their own that they have not found that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life, and that no one comes to the father except through him, in other words if they were born in a Muslim or Jewish household and followed the teachings of their own religion it would be a mistake so to speak or of no fault of their own, then God through this mysterious excuse known as grace, might grant them admission to the amusement park in the sky.

Even if it is through a fault of their own, like for example a baptized Catholic who converts to Islam, a Catholic is always taught to never judge and that God is the only one who truly can. And even in such case might 'grace' this person.

I didn't really get that out of my 12 years but OK.
When I was growing up only a Catholic baptized into the Church could enter into the "amusement park".
That to refer to someone being brought up in another religion as a mistake and no fault of their own kinda says it all.
But then again I didn't pay that much attention during my 12 years.

[fignon's barber]

I have a very black and white opinion on this topic. I went to an all boys Catholic high school in Philly. The "Father" that is the subject of the below link was our English teacher my senior year ( he had just come to the school as a lay teacher). I remember him as a creepy man who seemed to prey on the less popular or "less tough" kids. The school was a sports factory and those of us who were popular athletes , thankfully, seemed to be off his radar. When I read this article a couple years ago, and thought about the horrors that others around him knew, it sickened me. It has nothing to do with religion.


https://www.phillymag.com/articles/2...of-the-father/

[AngryScientist]

brings up another important point that any parents should take very seriously instilling in their young kids a sense of right and wrong and open honesty.

it is beyond me how these people would scare young children into not telling parents etc about the atrocities they had to suffer. it's very scarey to me how widespread this was.

if something seems even remotely wrong kids should not be afraid to speak up.

questioning attitude. so important.

[johnmdesigner]

Originally Posted by johnmdesigner

I didn't really get that out of my 12 years but OK.
When I was growing up only a Catholic baptized into the Church could enter into the "amusement park".
That to refer to someone being brought up in another religion as a mistake and no fault of their own kinda says it all.
But then again I didn't pay that much attention during my 12 years.

My apologies for straying beyond the original topic. This will be my last.
My father converted to Catholicism from the Methodist religion so that he could marry my Mother (he must have really loved her). His family never spoke to him again.
Despite fulfilling his obligations and being baptized into the Church he was denied entry to the male dominated religious institutions (Knights of Columbus, etc.) of the time (this was the late 50's). Even being sponsored by his brother-in-law (my Mother's family were "super Catholics") didn't help. He always felt an outsider in the Church that he willingly converted to.
It's funny but my Mother and her sister both married men outside the Church. My Uncle was a total Atheist. He stayed home on Sundays.

[shinomaster]

Originally Posted by fignon's barber

It has nothing to do with religion.

But this particular religion has repeatedly covered up problems, and moved priests around, and reassigned them when problems arise, over and over again. It makes no sense, and it has nothing to do with the bible obviously, but it seems to have everything to do with the Catholic Church.

[tctyres]

Originally Posted by fignon's barber

I have a very black and white opinion on this topic. I went to an all boys Catholic high school in Philly. The "Father" that is the subject of the below link was our English teacher my senior year ( he had just come to the school as a lay teacher). ...
https://www.phillymag.com/articles/2...of-the-father/

That's a painful read.

I've known good priests and priests that I wouldn't associate with. It's sad what happened to so many people. I can only think of one creepster priest when I was a kid in PA, and he probably was doing something, but I hope I never have my suspicion validated.

There are a lot of good opinions in this thread. I think with an organization as large as the Catholic Church, there is a lot of room for both bad and good. There are a lot of different and valid experiences.