Ti Frame too stiff?

[mikmcconnell]

Originally Posted by Kontact

What does a too-stiff bike with 2" tires feel like?

Not good!

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[John H.]

Like a brick- no resilience or compliance.
Yes- 2.1 tires and a suspension fork. Still too stiff.

Originally Posted by Kontact

What does a too-stiff bike with 2" tires feel like?

[yashcha]

We pretty much ride the same size 54cm TT(173cm/60KGs).

I recently got a straight gauge frameset built by Max at 333FAB. I asked for a really stiff frame because I ride like a small Bartoli-gorilla when climbing a hill and I hate noodle-y frames. The chainstays are THICK, thick to the point where a couple of the Seven cycles guys I was riding with noticed right away how thick they were. The frameset is MUCH stiffer, and noticeably not as shock absorbing as my Seven Axiom SL, but not as transmitting as my Alu Zank. I have always loved the way Alu rides, so this is exactly the kind of ride I was hoping from but in Ti.

It was a great learning experience for me to see how a builder can control how a bike feels by carefully controlling the sizing/manipulation of the tubing. From this very limited experience, I think oversized chainstays can make a significant difference in feel.

[mikmcconnell]

Originally Posted by yashcha

We pretty much ride the same size 54cm TT(173cm/60KGs).

I recently got a straight gauge frameset built by Max at 333FAB. I asked for a really stiff frame because I ride like a small Bartoli-gorilla when climbing a hill and I hate noodle-y frames. The chainstays are THICK, thick to the point where a couple of the Seven cycles guys I was riding with noticed right away how thick they were. The frameset is MUCH stiffer, and noticeably not as shock absorbing as my Seven Axiom SL, but not as transmitting as my Alu Zank. I have always loved the way Alu rides, so this is exactly the kind of ride I was hoping from but in Ti.

It was a great learning experience for me to see how a builder can control how a bike feels by carefully controlling the sizing/manipulation of the tubing. From this very limited experience, I think oversized chainstays can make a significant difference in feel.

That's a good point you make on climbing. This IF climbs like nothing else. It's awesome.

And yes, those are some serious chainstays. I've got oversized stays on mine and they're not that big, those things are huge.

[eddief]

1. That Seven would provide that level of customer service.
2. That you got to experience the difference between two frames in rapid succession.

Originally Posted by NYCfixie

Try lower tire pressures first and ride it some more. If it still feels too stiff, than it is no matter what anybody else tells you.

I ordered a new Seven mid-reach brake road bike about 18 months ago and something got lost in translation between the store and Seven so the seat stays were too big. I tried almost everything to make it feel less stiff: changed from Shimano C35 to C24 wheels, wider tires, lower pressure, more comfortable seat, and even more padded shorts but it was too stiff and my back was killing me.

Seven took the bike back, stripped it, welded in thinner stays (and a new seat tube so no weld marks would show, built it again, and gave it back. Others may claim chainstays should not make a difference but that is the only other thing that was changed and to me it did make a huge change and the bike was amazing after that.

Try everything you can and then make a decision.

Life is to short to ride uncomfortable bikes.

[yashcha]

Originally Posted by mikmcconnell

That's a good point you make on climbing. This IF climbs like nothing else. It's awesome.

And yes, those are some serious chainstays. I've got oversized stays on mine and they're not that big, those things are huge.

I have owned a Litespeed Tuscany, Classic, Moots Vamoots, Seven Axiom Sl, and this is a completely different beast.

I also noticed that when I went from Vittoria Rubinos 25 to Michelin Pro endurance 25's that it transformed the ride from slightly dull, to lively and comfortable. I never liked the Conti Gran prixs and always felt that they rode a bit stiff. I am curious how the bike would ride with really soft widish tires and latex tubes.

[mikmcconnell]

Originally Posted by eddief

1. That Seven would provide that level of customer service.
2. That you got to experience the difference between two frames in rapid succession.

Wonder if they charged as well

[mikmcconnell]

Originally Posted by yashcha

I have owned a Litespeed Tuscany, Classic, Moots Vamoots, Seven Axiom Sl, and this is a completely different beast.

I also noticed that when I went from Vittoria Rubinos 25 to Michelin Pro endurance 25's that it transformed the ride from slightly dull, to lively and comfortable. I never liked the Conti Gran prixs and always felt that they rode a bit stiff. I am curious how the bike would ride with really soft widish tires and latex tubes.

The reviews say great things about the GPs in 28s and I've had terrible experience with the Michelin's predecessors so I stay away from that brand.

Gonna be a line call on tyre clearance methinks.

If I lived in the States this would be a lot easier, I just saw the prices on the 333FAB site. They'd be a lot more than that by the time they reached New Zealand

[cadence90]

Originally Posted by NYCfixie

Seven took the bike back, stripped it, welded in thinner stays (and a new seat tube so no weld marks would show, built it again, and gave it back.

I'm confused: how would a new seat tube have no welds showing?
If the rear triangle was all new, OK, all new welds back there...but the new triangle was then re-welded to the old tt/dt, correct?
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[mikmcconnell]

Originally Posted by cadence90

I'm confused: how would a new seat tube have no welds showing?
If the rear triangle was all new, OK, all new welds back there...but the new triangle was then re-welded to the old tt/dt, correct?
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I'm confused too. I thought I had the answer but I've confused myself further. Wouldn't taking the seattube out increase the number of welds (because now you have to weld the seat tube to the top of the BB and the seat tube to the top tube).

[cadence90]

Originally Posted by mikmcconnell

I'm confused too. I thought I had the answer but I've confused myself further. Wouldn't taking the seattube out increase the number of welds (because now you have to weld the seat tube to the top of the BB and the seat tube to the top tube).

Yes, at least given the way NYCfixie wrote it ("...and a new seat tube so no weld marks would show..."), I do not understand what he/she intended. Clearly, old or new, welds on ti frames will be and are visible.


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[mikmcconnell]

Originally Posted by cadence90

Yes, at least given the way NYCfixie wrote it ("...and a new seat tube so no weld marks would show..."), I do not understand what he/she intended. Clearly, old or new, welds on ti frames will be and are visible.


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These guys do amazing work of course. The welds on my bike are incredible.

I'm an office guy by day and do quite a bit of building work on weekends and evenings. What I find difficult in wood (which is extremely forgiving all things considered) they can do in steel and Ti


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[NYCfixie]

1 - I would be hard pressed to purchase anything from anyone other than Seven in the future. I am not sure if I would use the same shop again though. There were so many smaller details that got messed up with the order that could be directly connected to the shop (wrong bars, wrong stem, build delays, rudeness, etc.) but Seven was the one that came through on the seatstay issue. It got to a point where I just dealt with Seven directly.

2 - As I was told by Seven, when they needed to "replace" and weld "smaller" seatstays in the same location as "larger" seatstays you would have seen "marks" from the previous welds (think outside diameter of the tubes and where the welds would have been). So, by also replacing the seattube which stayed the same diameter, the new welds covered the old weld marks/locations at the toptube and downtube junctions but at at the seatstay junctions it was new material.


Again, I tried all the things Seven and the shop requested and when it did not make a difference Seven made it right. That is customer service and why everyone should consider getting a custom Ti Seven (but choose the shop wisely).

Originally Posted by eddief

1. That Seven would provide that level of customer service.
2. That you got to experience the difference between two frames in rapid succession.

Originally Posted by mikmcconnell

Wonder if they charged as well

Originally Posted by mikmcconnell

I'm confused too. I thought I had the answer but I've confused myself further. Wouldn't taking the seattube out increase the number of welds (because now you have to weld the seat tube to the top of the BB and the seat tube to the top tube).

Originally Posted by cadence90

Yes, at least given the way NYCfixie wrote it ("...and a new seat tube so no weld marks would show..."), I do not understand what he/she intended. Clearly, old or new, welds on ti frames will be and are visible.


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[Kontact]

Originally Posted by John H.

Like a brick- no resilience or compliance.
Yes- 2.1 tires and a suspension fork. Still too stiff.

Too stiff where? What source of shock or force did you need isolation from on a bike with 30 psi tires between it and the ground?

[mikmcconnell]

Originally Posted by NYCfixie

1 - I would be hard pressed to purchase anything from anyone other than Seven in the future. I am not sure if I would use the same shop again though. There were so many smaller details that got messed up with the order that could be directly connected to the shop (wrong bars, wrong stem, build delays, rudeness, etc.) but Seven was the one that came through on the seatstay issue. It got to a point where I just dealt with Seven directly.

2 - As I was told by Seven, when they needed to "replace" and weld "smaller" seatstays in the same location as "larger" seatstays you would have seen "marks" from the previous welds (think outside diameter of the tubes and where the welds would have been). So, by also replacing the seattube which stayed the same diameter, the new welds covered the old weld marks/locations at the toptube and downtube junctions but at at the seatstay junctions it was new material.


Again, I tried all the things Seven and the shop requested and when it did not make a difference Seven made it right. That is customer service and why everyone should consider getting a custom Ti Seven (but choose the shop wisely).

Ahhh, that makes more sense.

I went direct with IF and it was a bit of a nightmare TBH, but they got there in the end. I've been listening to a podcast with the CEO today and it seems that their strategy is to go through dealers so I'm now not that surprised that the direct experience wasn't the best. (they weren't rude or anything, it just took way way longer than they said it would and then there were glitches with payment etc).

But that pales in comparison to the experience that a friend had with Speedvagen. Christ on a bike they sounded awful