Ti Frame too stiff?

[mikmcconnell]

Hi,

I've got a Indy Fab Ti Crown Jewel Disc. Had it for five years but haven't been doing much riding (babies).

I'm now getting back on it and am thinking that it might be too stiff. It just kills me on longer rides - I can feel absolutely everything on the road - to the point I think I can feel a wheel pulsing that's a fraction of a millimetre out of true.

It was built with oversized tubes (down tube, head tube and BB), and I'm only a little guy (53.7cm TT - I'm 168cm and about 65kg). It's a stunning bike, but I think might not be right for my purposes.

I'm thinking I might have a great crit bike for racing on perfect tarmac (which we don't have here in NZ) but a not so great other purposes bike.

Thoughts?

[MattTuck]

If you haven't been riding a lot lately, I think that is the more likely culprit. Your body and mind adapt to the physical and mental demands of riding. Coming back to it takes some time.

[Bruce K]

What you are feeling is probably more a function of the oversized than the Ti.

My Ti bikes have been some of the most comfortable I’ve owned

BK

[Kontact]

The fork stiffness required for disk brakes is likely one of the main culprits.

You can make a fork stiff enough to not break from hub braking, or you can make it absorb shock well. You can't really do both.

[Britishbane]

It took this long for someone to ask about tire size and pressure?

[mikmcconnell]

On tyre pressure:

These wheels: https://www.wheelworks.co.nz/shop-2/...eels/maker-cx/

These tyres: 25mm GP 4000s, 25mm

These pressures: 65 front 70 rear

[mikmcconnell]

Originally Posted by Kontact

The fork stiffness required for disk brakes is likely one of the main culprits.

You can make a fork stiff enough to not break from hub braking, or you can make it absorb shock well. You can't really do both.

Yeah, it's the first generation ENVE road disc fork. Post mount, QR.

Would changing that have any effect you think?

[mikmcconnell]

Originally Posted by Bruce K

What you are feeling is probably more a function of the oversized than the Ti.

My Ti bikes have been some of the most comfortable I’ve owned

BK

Yeah - that's why I mentioned the oversized part, that's part of my suspicion. My other bikes are a 1998 C40, regular sized tubes. Butter.

A Ritchey Swisscross Disc - regular steel tubes - most awesome bike ever.

[mikmcconnell]

Originally Posted by MattTuck

If you haven't been riding a lot lately, I think that is the more likely culprit. Your body and mind adapt to the physical and mental demands of riding. Coming back to it takes some time.

Yeah, I definitely think that's part of it. But I've always thought it was mad stiff, even when I was race fit. It's worse than it was and yes, I put that down to age and stage (kids!)

I'm on the bike five days a week commuting, but usually on my steel CX bike (still disc, but not as full on - it's a Ritchey and is uber comfortable).

[mikmcconnell]

Oh - the other thing I didn't mention. I've recently switched from alloy bars (FSA compact bars which I'd been riding for the past decade) to FSA SL-Ks (carbon with a kevlar internal wrap I'm told).

Any idea whether that would have an effect?

[Peter P.]

You have to define what you mean by "oversize". Titanium tubes have to be larger than typical steel frame tubes to have equivalent stiffness. So unless you ordered the frame with "oversized for titanium tubes on a frame of my size" I'm inclined to think I.F. was smart enough to build the frame to be commensurate with your size and weight.

I'm also of the opinion that a bicycle frame is comprised of a triangle and a quadrilateral, neither of which have any vertical compliance to contribute to comfort. Look for compliance elsewhere.

Sounds like we're getting it narrowed down to the disc brake specific fork and your memory of the bike's ride vs. your time away from the bike.

Since you've already discussed tire pressure, I'd also suggest you try larger tires and perhaps a rim with a smaller cross-section i.e., if it's a taller, aero-shaped rim, perhaps try a box section aluminum rim.

FYI: I'm your height and only 2kg lighter, so I have some understanding of what you might experience in a frame your size.

[eddief]

I owned a Serotta Fierte IT. I know it was a combo of ti and carbon but I swore that bike rode (for me) as if it was plumbing pipes. Beat me up bad. Then I got my Carver ti with Enve fork and I never looked back. Also Conti 4000 ii 28mm tires with 85 back and 75 front. Love that bike.

So bottom line different bikes do feel different and lots of factors including the big one between your ears.

[mikmcconnell]

Originally Posted by Peter P.

You have to define what you mean by "oversize". Titanium tubes have to be larger than typical steel frame tubes to have equivalent stiffness. So unless you ordered the frame with "oversized for titanium tubes on a frame of my size" I'm inclined to think I.F. was smart enough to build the frame to be commensurate with your size and weight.

I'm also of the opinion that a bicycle frame is comprised of a triangle and a quadrilateral, neither of which have any vertical compliance to contribute to comfort. Look for compliance elsewhere.

Sounds like we're getting it narrowed down to the disc brake specific fork and your memory of the bike's ride vs. your time away from the bike.

Since you've already discussed tire pressure, I'd also suggest you try larger tires and perhaps a rim with a smaller cross-section i.e., if it's a taller, aero-shaped rim, perhaps try a box section aluminum rim.

No, I think the oversized tubes were a bit of a compromise because of the size of the headtube needed for a 1.25 fork for the disc. Most of the discussion with the design guy at the time was about aesthetics etc, I really don't think the impact of it on stiffness for my frame size was really thought through (I also specc'd a race bike - which is definitely what I've got).

Yeah, I had box section rims on it - I think I'll switch them back and see how they ride.

[mikmcconnell]

Originally Posted by eddief

I owned a Serotta Fierte IT. I know it was a combo of ti and carbon but I swore that bike rode (foe me) as if it was plumbing pipes. Beat me up bad. Then I got my Carver ti with Enve fork and I never looked back. Also Conti 4000 ii 28mm tires with 85 back and 75 front. Love that bike.

So bottom line different bikes do feel different and lots of factors including the big one between your ears.

Chur. Yeah, none of this is all that scientific right? The bike is the bike (to quote Sachs).

I'm just trying to figure out which variables are changeable cheaply enough before I get to whether or not the frameset should go. I'd rather hold on to it if I can, but I'd rather not put more money into it if it's not going to help given what a Supersix Evo Disc now costs.

Sounds like 28mm is the first shot. Then wheels back to the alloys.

Fork is a bit of a major drama because the front hub I've got on the alloy rims can't be converted to QR.

[NYCfixie]

Try lower tire pressures first and ride it some more. If it still feels too stiff, than it is no matter what anybody else tells you.

I ordered a new Seven mid-reach brake road bike about 18 months ago and something got lost in translation between the store and Seven so the seat stays were too big. I tried almost everything to make it feel less stiff: changed from Shimano C35 to C24 wheels, wider tires, lower pressure, more comfortable seat, and even more padded shorts but it was too stiff and my back was killing me.

Seven took the bike back, stripped it, welded in thinner stays (and a new seat tube so no weld marks would show, built it again, and gave it back. Others may claim chainstays should not make a difference but that is the only other thing that was changed and to me it did make a huge change and the bike was amazing after that.

Try everything you can and then make a decision.

Life is to short to ride uncomfortable bikes.