Hey Jaybee: the 2021 NBA season has started.

[Clean39T]

Originally Posted by Jaybee

Your recording stopped because the last 1:30 took 30 minutes of real time to play!


...actual highlights here, spoilers below:

1:31, following a beautiful Payne reverse layup (I love lefty layups - there is a certain artistic quality to them, something that feels off yet more elegant as a result), the Clips kinda botch the inbound (why are you inbounding to Zubac anyway) and there is an interminable review while we figure out who's ball it is. Clips ball, Kennard nails a jumper, 100-97 Suns

1:06, Booker elbows Bev on a drive, replay review to decide if it's just an offensive foul or there is some flagrant contact there.

0:57, PG two FT's, 100-99 Suns

0:36, Zubac blocks Payne (who had the game of his life, BTW, and was in China last year. China!) at the rim

0:30, PG with a beautiful split of the double team on PNR, the kind of thing people have been saying he can't do, this is why he's not a 1A scoring option, and amazing body control to convert the layup, Clippers up 101-100. Timeout

0:27, Booker with a beautiful curl into an elbow jumper, perfect form, perfect results, Suns up 102-101. Timeout.

0:22, PG with a beautiful crossover into a mid-range jumper. 103-102 Clips. This still feels good - Booker and PG going at it, going to be a last shot kind of ending.

0:09, Bev knocks the ball out while harassing Booker on the sideline. At least that's what happens for the first 46 minutes. Instead we have another interminable review, and we decide that the ball grazes Bookers finger tips just before going out, a la that Final Four game a couple years ago and I hate hate hate that this operates this way. Beverly knocked the ball out. For 98% of the game, it's clearly Suns ball side out and no one says anything and we move on. For the last two minutes, we get the privilege of Zapruder-ing this **** into oblivion and determining that Booker's molecules touched it just after Beverly's molecules and it sucks. Then, after all that - Clippers Timeout.

0:08, PG fouled, misses 2 FT's (eeek). Suns Timeout. Our 7th timeout or review since 1:31.

0:02, Clippers with some amazing defense, force Booker to give it up, Bridges misses a 3, review on the ensuing rebound to see who's ball sideout in the corner. It's the Suns, with 0:00.9 left. This gives the Suns, who are out of timeouts, time to draw up a play.

0:00.7, amazing play, from the pass to the decoy and design to the execution, to Zubac almost knocking it away, to Book's screen, to the obscure rule that allows it. Find the highlight, it's worth it. Suns win, 104-103 right?

Nope, we have another review to determine the amount of time left, and then the Clips try to game it by subbing which they can't do on a review stoppage, then another review to determine who should be on the court, and instead of basking in the afterglow of the best players in the world doing their thing, we get to witness the bureaucratic end of things.

TLDR; the basketball was amazing, the stoppages and replays are not, and it's killing the product. The league has to get ahold of this ****. Casuals are not sitting through 30 minutes after bed time so we can throw it to Seacaucus for another review.

I haven't listened to commentary, so this is an uneducated questions that I'm sure has been answered - but how is that inbound pass to Dayton allowed? If Zubac had tipped it in front of the rim or touched it at all it would have been goaltending and game over, so how can you defend against that? Loophole? Of course they should have boxed out better but that risks getting a foul called on the inbounds and putting Dayton at the line..

Anyway, after the Blazers went out, I started watching Clippers games for the entertainment value and underdog aspect. Whatever happens this series it was fun watching them against the Jazz.

[FlashUNC]

I still find it preferable to relying on the refs to blow calls that swing entire playoff series. It's not perfect, but I'd rather last night's sequence -- which still had high drama, great play, and given the overall game the right result -- than it coming down to the refs getting an obvious out of bounds call wrong.

There's stuff they can do to speed up the replay and review process, for sure, but it ain't like this is your average MLB game either in terms of time wasted.

[XXtwindad]

Originally Posted by Jaybee

Your recording stopped because the last 1:30 took 30 minutes of real time to play!


...actual highlights here, spoilers below:

1:31, following a beautiful Payne reverse layup (I love lefty layups - there is a certain artistic quality to them, something that feels off yet more elegant as a result), the Clips kinda botch the inbound (why are you inbounding to Zubac anyway) and there is an interminable review while we figure out who's ball it is. Clips ball, Kennard nails a jumper, 100-97 Suns

1:06, Booker elbows Bev on a drive, replay review to decide if it's just an offensive foul or there is some flagrant contact there.

0:57, PG two FT's, 100-99 Suns

0:36, Zubac blocks Payne (who had the game of his life, BTW, and was in China last year. China!) at the rim

0:30, PG with a beautiful split of the double team on PNR, the kind of thing people have been saying he can't do, this is why he's not a 1A scoring option, and amazing body control to convert the layup, Clippers up 101-100. Timeout

0:27, Booker with a beautiful curl into an elbow jumper, perfect form, perfect results, Suns up 102-101. Timeout.

0:22, PG with a beautiful crossover into a mid-range jumper. 103-102 Clips. This still feels good - Booker and PG going at it, going to be a last shot kind of ending.

0:09, Bev knocks the ball out while harassing Booker on the sideline. At least that's what happens for the first 46 minutes. Instead we have another interminable review, and we decide that the ball grazes Bookers finger tips just before going out, a la that Final Four game a couple years ago and I hate hate hate that this operates this way. Beverly knocked the ball out. For 98% of the game, it's clearly Suns ball side out and no one says anything and we move on. For the last two minutes, we get the privilege of Zapruder-ing this **** into oblivion and determining that Booker's molecules touched it just after Beverly's molecules and it sucks. Then, after all that - Clippers Timeout.

0:08, PG fouled, misses 2 FT's (eeek). Suns Timeout. Our 7th timeout or review since 1:31.

0:02, Clippers with some amazing defense, force Booker to give it up, Bridges misses a 3, review on the ensuing rebound to see who's ball sideout in the corner. It's the Suns, with 0:00.9 left. This gives the Suns, who are out of timeouts, time to draw up a play.

0:00.7, amazing play, from the pass to the decoy and design to the execution, to Zubac almost knocking it away, to Book's screen, to the obscure rule that allows it. Find the highlight, it's worth it. Suns win, 104-103 right?

Nope, we have another review to determine the amount of time left, and then the Clips try to game it by subbing which they can't do on a review stoppage, then another review to determine who should be on the court, and instead of basking in the afterglow of the best players in the world doing their thing, we get to witness the bureaucratic end of things.

TLDR; the basketball was amazing, the stoppages and replays are not, and it's killing the product. The league has to get ahold of this ****. Casuals are not sitting through 30 minutes after bed time so we can throw it to Seacaucus for another review.

Wow. That took some dedication. Well done.

[Jaybee]

Originally Posted by Clean39T

I haven't listened to commentary, so this is an uneducated questions that I'm sure has been answered - but how is that inbound pass to Dayton allowed? If Zubac had tipped it in front of the rim or touched it at all it would have been goaltending and game over, so how can you defend against that? Loophole? Of course they should have boxed out better but that risks getting a foul called on the inbounds and putting Dayton at the line..

Anyway, after the Blazers went out, I started watching Clippers games for the entertainment value and underdog aspect. Whatever happens this series it was fun watching them against the Jazz.

The rule "loophole" that the Suns exploited (and previously exploited when Tyson Chandler played there) is that there is no goaltending on an inbounds pass. Zubac could have tipped it away without a goaltend call and almost did, but his hand hit the rim just before reaching the ball. The ball was clearly over the rim when Ayton touched it, but it doesn't matter, because it's an inbounds play.

[Jaybee]

Originally Posted by FlashUNC

I still find it preferable to relying on the refs to blow calls that swing entire playoff series. It's not perfect, but I'd rather last night's sequence -- which still had high drama, great play, and given the overall game the right result -- than it coming down to the refs getting an obvious out of bounds call wrong.

There's stuff they can do to speed up the replay and review process, for sure, but it ain't like this is your average MLB game either in terms of time wasted.

Here's the problem though - it wasn't an obvious OOB call. Ever since Naismith nailed up his first peach basket, when a defender reaches in and knocks the ball out, it's offense's ball unless it clearly goes off the defender's leg or they bobble it or something. It was that way for the first 46 minutes of this game. It's only when we can slow things down with 4K resolution that we can see that it grazes Booker's fingertips as Bev swipes down. If that's the right call (and by the rule, it is the right call), then virtually every OOB play like that is going in favor of the defense if we can view all of them. But we don't. We have different rules for the first 95% of the game and the last 5%.

PG missed his FT's because this angered the Basketball Gods.

[username]

Originally Posted by Jaybee

The rule "loophole" that the Suns exploited (and previously exploited when Tyson Chandler played there) is that there is no goaltending on an inbounds pass. Zubac could have tipped it away without a goaltend call and almost did, but his hand hit the rim just before reaching the ball. The ball was clearly over the rim when Ayton touched it, but it doesn't matter, because it's an inbounds play.

But it's not really a loophole, is it? It's just a dead-ball play, which means it can't be a shot on goal, so it can't be a goaltending or basket interference call. That said, I appreciate that you're one of the few people who's—rightly!—noting that Zubac actually defended the play well. He got through Booker's moving screen (I'm not complaining, because good for him for forcing the refs to make an impossible call; I'm just noting that he wasn't set) and almost broke up what literally was a perfect play.

[username]

Originally Posted by Jaybee

Here's the problem though - it wasn't an obvious OOB call. Ever since Naismith nailed up his first peach basket, when a defender reaches in and knocks the ball out, it's offense's ball unless it clearly goes off the defender's leg or they bobble it or something. It was that way for the first 46 minutes of this game. It's only when we can slow things down with 4K resolution that we can see that it grazes Booker's fingertips as Bev swipes down. If that's the right call (and by the rule, it is the right call), then virtually every OOB play like that is going in favor of the defense if we can view all of them. But we don't. We have different rules for the first 95% of the game and the last 5%.

PG missed his FT's because this angered the Basketball Gods.

Here I disagree with you. The ball went off Booker. Sure, it went off his hand. But I don't see how that different than if it went off his body or his leg. I mean, I'm fine with saying that there can only be X number of replays in the final two minutes. I'm fine with saying that out-of-bounds plays aren't subject to replay (actually, I'm not fine with this). But I don't understand why Van Gundy was so outraged—other than being an outraged old dude is Van Gundy's brand—about the refs making the right call under the rules.

[xnetter]

Originally Posted by Jaybee

TLDR; the basketball was amazing, the stoppages and replays are not, and it's killing the product. The league has to get ahold of this ****. Casuals are not sitting through 30 minutes after bed time so we can throw it to Seacaucus for another review.

Agreed. As Jeff Van Gundy said about the Beverly reach/out of bounds turnover, sure it was technically last touched by Booker, but that's not the intent of the rule. Refs were super tough on the Suns throughout that game.

I do concur with some fans when they say the league has "gone soft" in recent years. That's not because I want more violence - far from it - but rather that the flow and rhythm of the game suffers when there is whistle after whistle when it should be a play-on. In fairness, some of this falls to the players who have learned all the acting moves and perfected their flops to draw the whistle. There is a craft to that, but past a certain point it kills the fun.

KJ

[FlashUNC]

Originally Posted by Jaybee

Here's the problem though - it wasn't an obvious OOB call. Ever since Naismith nailed up his first peach basket, when a defender reaches in and knocks the ball out, it's offense's ball unless it clearly goes off the defender's leg or they bobble it or something. It was that way for the first 46 minutes of this game. It's only when we can slow things down with 4K resolution that we can see that it grazes Booker's fingertips as Bev swipes down. If that's the right call (and by the rule, it is the right call), then virtually every OOB play like that is going in favor of the defense if we can view all of them. But we don't. We have different rules for the first 95% of the game and the last 5%.

PG missed his FT's because this angered the Basketball Gods.

I guess my counter to that is that if it isn't an obvious OOB call in a high leverage situation, then yeah, review it and get it right. The rule is brutally absolutist -- even if it is a fingertip, whoever touched it last its out on them -- but I tend to agree with that approach over the NFL being unable to define when someone catches a football.

[Jaybee]

Originally Posted by username

Here I disagree with you. The ball went off Booker. Sure, it went off his hand. But I don't see how that different than if it went off his body or his leg. I mean, I'm fine with saying that there can only be X number of replays in the final two minutes. I'm fine with saying that out-of-bounds plays aren't subject to replay (actually, I'm not fine with this). But I don't understand why Van Gundy was so outraged—other than being an outraged old dude is Van Gundy's brand—about the refs making the right call under the rules.

Originally Posted by FlashUNC

I guess my counter to that is that if it isn't an obvious OOB call in a high leverage situation, then yeah, review it and get it right. The rule is brutally absolutist -- even if it is a fingertip, whoever touched it last its out on them -- but I tend to agree with that approach over the NFL being unable to define when someone catches a football.

This is the hard part right? Brutally absolutist rules are easier to adjudicate, and I don't want the refs spending time deciding who provided the impetus or whatever convoluted language you'd need to fix the rule. But Bev clearly knocked it out and no one thinks otherwise outside of the last two minutes. I don't think one set of rules for this part of the game and one set for this other part is a tenable solution either.

My answer, and we will never see eye to eye on this I suspect, is drop replay altogether. Make a call in real time. If you get it wrong, so what? It's a human enterprise, inherently flawed as all human enterprises are and that is part of the beauty, rather than a drawback.

[Jaybee]

Originally Posted by username

But it's not really a loophole, is it? It's just a dead-ball play, which means it can't be a shot on goal, so it can't be a goaltending or basket interference call. That said, I appreciate that you're one of the few people who's—rightly!—noting that Zubac actually defended the play well. He got through Booker's moving screen (I'm not complaining, because good for him for forcing the refs to make an impossible call; I'm just noting that he wasn't set) and almost broke up what literally was a perfect play.

https://twitter.com/NateDuncanNBA/st...51694003531776

You're right - not a loophole, just a little-known rule. It is a perfect play. Bridges fading to the corner means Beverly can't step into the lane. Cam Johnson off a curl occupies PG. Batum (who kinda pushed Booker into Zubac on the screen - no call is correct here, IMO) can't switch to cover the roll man because Book is too dangerous on catch-and-shoot. Let's also give Booker credit for getting trucked by Zu and taking it. Zu has excellent recovery and almost gets his hand on it, except that pass is perfect. Crowder's pass - 2 inches to his left and he hits the backboard. 2 inches to the right and Zu tips it away. 2 inches lower and it hits the rim. 2 inches higher and Ayton doesn't get a clean catch. Amazing.

[username]

Originally Posted by Jaybee

My answer, and we will never see eye to eye on this I suspect, is drop replay altogether. Make a call in real time. If you get it wrong, so what? It's a human enterprise, inherently flawed as all human enterprises are and that is part of the beauty, rather than a drawback.

I would sign off on this in a heartbeat. Or maybe giving coaches one replay per half or game. But I also hate VAR, because, like Jeff Van Gundy, I am old and cranky and favor the antiquated customs of my youth. Nostalgia is one hell of a drug.

[FlashUNC]

Originally Posted by Jaybee

This is the hard part right? Brutally absolutist rules are easier to adjudicate, and I don't want the refs spending time deciding who provided the impetus or whatever convoluted language you'd need to fix the rule. But Bev clearly knocked it out and no one thinks otherwise outside of the last two minutes. I don't think one set of rules for this part of the game and one set for this other part is a tenable solution either.

My answer, and we will never see eye to eye on this I suspect, is drop replay altogether. Make a call in real time. If you get it wrong, so what? It's a human enterprise, inherently flawed as all human enterprises are and that is part of the beauty, rather than a drawback.

I would be more in favor of this if the refs didn't blow so many blatantly obvious calls. Replay's needed to get stuff right in the high leverage situations. I get that it means sometimes the bang bang play early in the game would get a different result than the one in the last 2 minutes, but that's not much different than the "let them play" mindset that creeps in during the last 2 minutes, which I vehemently disagree with.

I'd much rather they restrict the replay to out of bounds calls than the flagrant/common foul stuff. Just call that as you see it because it's pretty obvious in real time when that stuff happens.

[username]

Yes, I know the Bucks won the last series. And yes, I know it would have raised eyebrows if they had fired Bud and hired Carlisle. But that's exactly what they should have done. Tell me I'm wrong. You literally can't.

[FlashUNC]

Trae Young forever.

Between this and all the drama in Dallas around Luka, I am a convert. The trade was genius. Schlenk forever.