OT: Baseball HOF - Last year of BBWAA eligibility for Bonds and Clemens. Yes? Or No?

[aydraper]

I'm a no on both Bonds and Clemens

[ScottW]

Originally Posted by cgolvin

I'm unsure where you are coming down on this point, but to me it's very different from the steroids because it was an orchestrated team effort. How that title is not treated as an exception is a complete mystery to me and the whole episode is a damning black mark against Manfred et al.

Wholeheartedly agree.
What they did materially affected game outcomes and was far worse for the game than anything Pete Rose ever did. Gambling on your own team to win, while a manager not a player, not throwing games or even shaving runs and certainly not abjectly cheating to win. Yet Manfred denied an application for Rose to be reinstated because it would make the game look bad. Manfred is not only spineless, but tone deaf.

I had to look up Schilling's stats, but on that basis, he definitely should be in. 3,116 Ks which is 15th all-time, just 1 less than Bob Gibson, and hundreds more than guys including Cy Young, Tom Glavine, Bob Feller. Roy Halladay is in the HOF and had 1,000 fewer Ks than Schilling.
Clemens is #3 all-time in Ks with 4,672. Obviously they look at more than just Ks, but there's no official statistics on jerkitude so that shouldn't count.

[Mr. Pink]

Originally Posted by eddief

You know a nice modern (big) building with professionally done exhibits, memorabilia, statues, statistics. Like a museum. And then all the fans of all the cheaters could go pay money to see their heroes. If you build it, they will come.

Ha. I have an idea for an alternative HOF. I was inspired after my first visit to the real one. Awesome place, but, a bit boring. Mine would have special rooms for cheating, roids, cocaine and speed, fights, Disco Night, and all the fun stuff. I'd have a model maker make a life size replica of Ted William's severed head and that would be a centerpiece in the bar, encased in a clear container with fake dry ice vapors spilling out of it. Of course it would be a bar. Since my bar would be near Saratoga Springs in NY, because I like it there, I'd have periodic cage fights between Yankee and Sox fans, since it's pretty much 50-50 up there. It would be fun, but, a legal mess.

[saab2000]

Originally Posted by bronk

First, Pete Rose. Should have got slapped on the wrist but not banned from the Hall of Fame. But now that Draft Kings, Fan Duel, etc. are partnering with MLB, there should be no debate.

I tend to agree with this except the slap on the wrist part. Gambling = lifetime ban.

That said, he probably does deserve to be in the HOF for his on-field performances, which are of course legendary.

And your point about fan betting and the partnership with MLB certainly makes their case for excluding Pete Rose awfully weak.

[XXtwindad]

Originally Posted by Mr. Pink

Ha. I have an idea for an alternative HOF. I was inspired after my first visit to the real one. Awesome place, but, a bit boring. Mine would have special rooms for cheating, roids, cocaine and speed, fights, Disco Night, and all the fun stuff. I'd have a model maker make a life size replica of Ted William's severed head and that would be a centerpiece in the bar, encased in a clear container with fake dry ice vapors spilling out of it. Of course it would be a bar. Since my bar would be near Saratoga Springs in NY, because I like it there, I'd have periodic cage fights between Yankee and Sox fans, since it's pretty much 50-50 up there. It would be fun, but, a legal mess.

Somewhere, Bill Veeck just tossed you a "banana."

[XXtwindad]

While we're at it ...

Why should Scherzer, Verlander, Felix etc.. get into the Hall? https://www.si.com/mlb/2021/06/14/st...ut-daily-cover

[clyde the point]

Great discussion. In my own head I liken all of this to history, whether good or bad, it is. It really is no different than tearing down Confederate statues to make a point about .... whatever, it's the history of the game, just like Lance is the history of the sport, and the story should be told as factually as possible. If you don't understand/know the history then it's likely to be repeated. To which I think most of us hope that the future is different from the past. Just my lil ol' opinion of course.

[makoti]

Originally Posted by clyde the point

Great discussion. In my own head I liken all of this to history, whether good or bad, it is. It really is no different than tearing down Confederate statues to make a point about .... whatever, it's the history of the game, just like Lance is the history of the sport, and the story should be told as factually as possible. If you don't understand/know the history then it's likely to be repeated. To which I think most of us hope that the future is different from the past. Just my lil ol' opinion of course.

This is completely missing the point in both cases.
A discussion about Confederate glorification would not survive here, so I won't bother, but to liken Bonds and Clemens to this is nuts.

[yinzerniner]

Originally Posted by XXtwindad

While we're at it ...

Why should Scherzer, Verlander, Felix etc.. get into the Hall? https://www.si.com/mlb/2021/06/14/st...ut-daily-cover

Because they’re incredible pitchers? The best in their era? I don’t understand the point of this rhetorical question….

But for real, if an illegal act isn’t enforced I don’t hold it against the players. And enforcement doesn’t have to be immediate, just consistent.

Remember, for many years steroids in baseball weren’t a bone of contention even though their use was startlingly obvious - it was only when baseball’s image and tax-exempt status was threatened by congress during hearings that they got all Tough Guy and started cracking down, with real penalties for current players and the specter of Hall exclusion for the best retired players.

[unterhausen]

I can't get too upset about doping in baseball. The NFL is the best demonstration of what a sport with essentially unfettered PED use is like, and nobody cares.

The astros cheating was not punished properly. Vacate the wins, vacate the championship and give a lot more people a year off to think about what they did. All of the players knew what was going on, so they are complicit. If it's close, I think they will not make the hall. And the pitchers definitely should not make the hall.

[clyde the point]

Originally Posted by makoti

This is completely missing the point in both cases.
A discussion about Confederate glorification would not survive here, so I won't bother, but to liken Bonds and Clemens to this is nuts.

The history is what it is, is my point, not that baseball players are in the same category as war people, but to wash the story by not including it, in my opinion, is not correct. The story should be told in total. These guys are here because of these reasons, both good and bad.

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by XXtwindad

While we're at it ...

Why should Scherzer, Verlander, Felix etc.. get into the Hall? https://www.si.com/mlb/2021/06/14/st...ut-daily-cover

Biggest difference between this and what Clemens and Bonds did is there was actually a rule against this at the time.

[yinzerniner]

Originally Posted by clyde the point

The history is what it is, is my point, not that baseball players are in the same category as war people, but to wash the story by not including it, in my opinion, is not correct. The story should be told in total. These guys are here because of these reasons, both good and bad.

This above point is valid - we should not erase or forget our history, even the painful and less flattering moments. However Confederate statues were never about “remembering the past” but indeed were simply glorification of a racist power structure.
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...erate-statues/

[yinzerniner]

Natch

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by yinzerniner

Dude, there was always a rule and penalties against “doctoring” baseballs with foreign substances - it just was selectively enforced until recently. Just look up Joe niekro.

Steroids were a banned substance but there was NO enforcement nor penalties for a long time.

Yes, there have been rules against doctoring the ball going back decades. Steroids were only officially banned in baseball in 2005.