O.t.tesla autonomy vehicle investor day

[mj_michigan]

IMO, all the analyses and announcements in this space have to be take with a grain of salt and Elon Mask's with two.

[mistermo]

Originally Posted by MattTuck

I'm not sure what information I could give you to convince you that the point is debatable because I don't know how strongly you hold the position that Tesla's technology is superior.

I'm merely wondering why you think that Tesla's technology is rivaled by any other electric car EVER PRODUCED?

As you point out, the Taycan isn't available, so it's specious to compare Tesla to it, or any other future vehicle. Compare Tesla to Bolt, Leaf, iPace, Prius, BMW, etc and I don't see anyone who can come close to challenging on several fronts:

Range:
No other company compares on range and the charging network. It's really not debatable that it's the only car that could drive from Hanover to NYC and back without an overnight stop to recharge. None of the others can do that.

Safety:
All Teslas have scored 5 stars in every category tested by NHTSA. Can't get better than that.

Performance:
the iPace is quick, but Tesla has models quicker. Debatable? Maybe, but hardly.

Autonomous/Driver assistance:
The Navigant article is about FUTURE technology. Neither Tesla nor anyone else offer full autonomous driving. Which other car on the market TODAY comes CLOSE to Tesla's driver assist features? It's disingenuous to post the 4 deaths while using to driver assist and imply that it's an unsafe product. While ZERO deaths is the goal, nothing will ever be perfect. Where's the column for lives saved?

It's perfectly legit to hate on Elon, he's a douche. However, I find it really tough to see how it's debatable that Tesla isn't superior in electric car performance and technology, and also driver assist technology, as it stands TODAY. Show me another car or company that comes close TODAY, and I'll be impressed.

[verticaldoug]

Since BEVs are less then 1% of the market, TESLA S probably is the best EV produced to date although NISSAN Leaf has sold more.

The important part to remember here is TESLA is making luxury cars and presently the ICE cars makers probably still make a higher quality product.

For driver assist, TESLA has pushed the boundary, but only marginally versus the latest Mercedes S amd E class. The latest BMW 5 series is not far behind. I think TESLA breaking with Mobile Eye and trying to do it all on their own is a losing strategy. Other companies have more resources and deeper pockets to throw at the problem. Up until now, TESLA was able to finance the future, but as the market becomes more skeptical, it will find it harder to finance the capex required.

Ultimately, in producing a car, the trade off is between innovation and bean counting. The million dollar question is it harder to mass produce a car profitably long term, or harder to innovate short term. I think the bean counters eventually rule since cars are largely a commodity product.

I think current ICE manufacturers will be able to produce competitive BEVs before TESLA can produce BEVs economically.
At least, as consumers, we will all benefit.

[MattTuck]

Originally Posted by mistermo

Range:
No other company compares on range and the charging network. It's really not debatable that it's the only car that could drive from Hanover to NYC and back without an overnight stop to recharge. None of the others can do that.

to this point, I thought this was an interesting article.

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/05/30...nge-disasters/

The entrance of the Model S in Germany was considered a failure about 5 years ago. Autos of this class were expected to be “Autobahn capable,” which in Germany translates to driving for 3 hours at 130 mph. Of course, nobody ever does it, beside car magazine journalists testing their (and the cars’) endurance while driving in the middle of the night. In day time there is far too much traffic to do stupid things like that.

It was the lack of range at those high speeds that doomed the Model S in Germany. The increasing resistance of the air is what is the biggest energy hog at high speeds. While the Model S has an excellent aerodynamic profile, the battery storage was just not big enough to have the range at high speeds that was expected from vehicles at this price class in Germany.

While the original Model S85 was not considered “Autobahn fähig” (highway capable) with an EPA rating of 265 miles (426 km), the current S100D has an EPA rating of 370 miles (595 km), probably just enough to be acceptable to snobbish German car journalists. The new range translates to a guestimated 2 hours at 100 mph (160 km/h). There have been some changes on the Model S in recent years, both in the capacity of the cars and the expectations of the public.

...

Now these journalists have the difficult task of being exalted about the new entrants in the luxury electric car market, the Jaguar I-PACE (EPA 234 miles / 377 km), the Audi e-tron (EPA 204 miles / 328 km), and the Mercedes EQC (EPA ~210–225 miles / 338–362 km). This is considerably less than the Model S85, a car with a far better aerodynamic profile. (Cd 0.29 for I-PACE, Cd 0.28 for e-tron and EQC, Cd 0.24 for Model S). These higher Cd values are a bit of a problem. With higher speeds, the car needs more power to overcome the air resistance. The higher the Cd value, the more power is needed for every extra mile per hour.



In the case of Autobahn range, the higher the Cd value, the faster the range decreases with higher speeds. The EPA rating is a mixture of urban driving, outside city (45 mph, or 72 km/h) driving, and a bit of highway driving. It is already too optimistic for pure American highway driving. I have not seen numbers for German Autobahn driving, but they will not be pretty. The range will drop with something like 40% when increasing the speed from 75 mph to 100 mph (121–161 km/h).

These three new competitors in the high-end luxury segment will have exhausted their battery after about 1 hour of driving at 100 mph (161 km/h). But these are not despised American intruders that need to be put in their place. These are the pride of the German (and British) car industry. Loyalty dictates a loving review.

[sand fungus]

I have not watched the video, but there are a lot of questions in my mind how they can make a truly autonomous vehicle with the suite of sensors they have on board today. There is just too much risk in the edge cases to cover all scenarios.

The majority of the serious players in the autonomous space are using multiple lidar, multiple radars, multiple cameras - in all angles of view and will rely on V2I and V2V communication to help understand the environment around the vehicle. They are not doing this just to add redundancy they are doing it because they have specific edge cases that need to be legitimately covered to be safe. Cameras alone and radars just don't cover all these edge cases.

I don't think they can cover all the edge cases, no matter how good their software is, if they don't have the sensing hardware on board, that and there is not enough redundancy in my opinion to be safe enough for a fully autonomous vehicle.

[Drmojo]

[QUOTE=mistermo;2546143]I'm merely wondering why you think that Tesla's technology is rivaled by any other electric car EVER PRODUCED?

As you point out, the Taycan isn't available, so it's specious to compare Tesla to it, or any other future vehicle. Compare Tesla to Bolt, Leaf, iPace, Prius, BMW, etc and I don't see anyone who can come close to challenging on several fronts:

Range:
No other company compares on range and the charging network. It's really not debatable that it's the only car that could drive from Hanover to NYC and back without an overnight stop to recharge. None of the others can do that.













As a Bolt owner for 2 years, after driving 3 Tesla models
My 220 mile range is plenty- drove from NoCal to Grants Pass OR
no problem
The Model 3 base price is 20 k more than my car and deluxe model 3s can set you back 60k
I have driven Models 3, X and S
They are great expensive cars
Like an I pad on wheels
My Bolt is like a quiet very fast go cart with MUCH better handiling on twisty roads-especially in Sport mode when is only 3% slower than Model 3t

[bfd]

[QUOTE=Drmojo;2547616]

Originally Posted by mistermo

As a Bolt owner for 2 years, after driving 3 Tesla models
My 220 mile range is plenty- drove from NoCal to Grants Pass OR
no problem
The Model 3 base price is 20 k more than my car and deluxe model 3s can set you back 60k
I have driven Models 3, X and S
They are great expensive cars
Like an I pad on wheels
My Bolt is like a quiet very fast go cart with MUCH better handiling on twisty roads-especially in Sport mode when is only 3% slower than Model 3t

220 mile range is pretty good. It is about the same as a Model 3 with the small battery, which cost between $35-39K or very close to the price of a Bolt.

So I guess the question is how long does it take to charge your Bolt? I presume you're using Level 2 (240v) charging? One advantage of Tesla is it charges at level 3 (direct current) and the version 2 charger charges at like 400 miles/hour and the new v3, that is coming out, will charge at like 1000 miles/hour.

Further, the network is in most major cities and highways so unless you're traveling to remote areas, it should be fairly easy to find a charging station.

I'm looking for another car and was considering a Model 3. But I want the big battery and RWD, that package will cost $51k out the door. With the big battery, the range is around 300-320 miles. Unfortunately, with two kids in college, that's a little more than I can spend.

YMMV!

Good Luck!

[Dave B]

Originally Posted by Tickdoc

I love my "horse".

Yes! Now we are talking.

Tesla makes an incredibly complex “thinking” car and I admire the brain power to create this “future” of what driving should be.

I am glad I am still old school enough not to be terribly excited by an electric car. There is just no sound to the car, it feels benign and uninspired.

I myself love power and especially combustible power! I may not be a visionary like Musk, but those batteries don’t come cheap to produce and dispose of.

I drive a mustang and wouldn’t trade it for any Tesla...period. I do like Musk’s dream, but it isn’t my dream.

[Drmojo]

[QUOTE=bfd;2547627]

Originally Posted by Drmojo

220 mile range is pretty good. It is about the same as a Model 3 with the small battery, which cost between $35-39K or very close to the price of a Bolt.

So I guess the question is how long does it take to charge your Bolt? I presume you're using Level 2 (240v) charging? One advantage of Tesla is it charges at level 3 (direct current) and the version 2 charger charges at like 400 miles/hour and the new v3, that is coming out, will charge at like 1000 miles/hour.

Further, the network is in most major cities and highways so unless you're traveling to remote areas, it should be fairly easy to find a charging station.

I'm looking for another car and was considering a Model 3. But I want the big battery and RWD, that package will cost $51k out the door. With the big battery, the range is around 300-320 miles. Unfortunately, with two kids in college, that's a little more than I can spend.

YMMV!

Good Luck!

Cheapest Model 3 is has not hit the road
goodies tax et etc
my 2 pals spent 53 and 58 k for their model 3s
Hyudai Kona rated at 276 range—same price as Bolt!

[Drmojo]

Fast charging 2 hours tops
But you pay for it
Level 2 I always charge for free my work my home town
about 20 miles in an hour
But park at work
Top off
Rarely dip below 100
I spent $1.30 on charging in the past 10 months
Tesla um, charges customers of Model 3 s to charge
But not model X owners—that car costs 100-120 k with goodies
AND
Bolt has room to put 2 bikes in car without removing front wheels folding back seat down
Can not do with Model 3
I checked

[bfd]

[QUOTE=Drmojo;2547777]

Originally Posted by bfd

Cheapest Model 3 is has not hit the road
goodies tax et etc
my 2 pals spent 53 and 58 k for their model 3s
Hyudai Kona rated at 276 range—same price as Bolt!

Disagree. My buddy got the Model 3 with the standard plus package, a $2k option at the time for a total of $37k plus tax and license. But the standard plus package is now like $4k so that same car will now cost your $40k plus tax and license. That's very close to the cost of the Bolt, but you get a range of 240 miles! check it out:

https://www.tesla.com/model3/design

I will agree that the Bolt with the hatchback makes putting in a bike easier. But fold down the seats on a Model 3 and take off the wheels and it fits!

Good Luck!

[alancw3]

so I guess that Tesla has gone in different direction than the norm i.e. not using lidar vs. cameras and ai. I do not know which will ultimately play out but I do have to give credit to Elon Musk for his efforts. imho he has made some mistakes with regards to the media but that being said lets hope Tesla succeeds.

[Drmojo]

[QUOTE=bfd;2547937]

Originally Posted by Drmojo

Disagree. My buddy got the Model 3 with the standard plus package, a $2k option at the time for a total of $37k plus tax and license. But the standard plus package is now like $4k so that same car will now cost your $40k plus tax and license. That's very close to the cost of the Bolt, but you get a range of 240 miles! check it out:

https://www.tesla.com/model3/design

I will agree that the Bolt with the hatchback makes putting in a bike easier. But fold down the seats on a Model 3 and take off the wheels and it fits!

Good Luck!

I did not wait 2 years for an affordable Tesla
And I Love fitting in bike Without removing wheel
It is a big reason I got the Bolt
Take bike to many many charging stations with bike inside- ride home ot ride a mile or two
Come back voila

[William]

Originally Posted by Dave B

Yes! Now we are talking.

Tesla makes an incredibly complex “thinking” car and I admire the brain power to create this “future” of what driving should be.

I am glad I am still old school enough not to be terribly excited by an electric car. There is just no sound to the car, it feels benign and uninspired.

I myself love power and especially combustible power! I may not be a visionary like Musk, but those batteries don’t come cheap to produce and dispose of.

I drive a mustang and wouldn’t trade it for any Tesla...period. I do like Musk’s dream, but it isn’t my dream.

If you prefer Old School...and want some new school, these guys are doing bolt in conversions with Tesla parts...and I think you would be surprised by the power.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOx5uCufB2Q








W.