Masi-Confente-Medici Story--Drama

[paredown]

Originally Posted by NHAero

Despite the tone, I think there is a lot of truth in the Brian Baylis piece quoted above. It's poignant to me as he cites Bob Jackson as one of the over-rated framebuilders. I think that's true in most cases - BJ turned out many frames of varying quality from a well-staffed shop. When I was looking to have a custom made frame in late 1971, Sheldon Brown steered me to BJ, but he pointed me towards BJ's best model (called the Olympus, BITD). I wanted an all-rounder that would have clearance for larger tires and would accept racks and fenders so the Masi/Cinelli and similar were out. That frame has diamond reinforcements at the brake bridges, and long spearpoints on the BB shell and inside of the fork crown. When we tested a bunch of frames for stiffness at MIT in 1974 to help specify tubing diameter and thickness for the aluminum bike frame project, my BJ was one of the lightest frames and yet on the stiffer end of the frames we tested.

Sheldon wrote "A friend of mine has a Jackson that he has owned for years. It truly is one of the most attractive bicycles I've ever seen. It features great stove enamel, fun contrasting red panels, and rides great." And yet we've all seen some very ordinary examples for frames that have come from that company.

I contrast this with my 1988 Nagasawa fixed gear road trainer. I sent that back in 2014 to Circle A for a full strip and re-paint, and they sent some photos of the frame stripped, and told me it was a beautifully made frame. And when Dave Anderson made my frame in 2012, he sent links to a photo album with his progress week by week on the frame, and you can see the incredible craftsmanship he applies to his work. Being a stainless frame, with little paint when it was delivered, his brazing work is fully visible, and impeccable. I have little doubt that our contemporary framebuilders of his rank surpass the quality of the vintage high end frames. And when one adds in the significant advances in steel metallurgy, there really is no comparison.

All that being said, all three of the bikes mentioned above are in regular riding rotation, and very much enjoyed for what they are and how they ride, and how they look. The Nagasawa and the Anderson have more of what Baylis calls 'mojo' to me, but I think it is because each was made by one highly dedicated and skilled person - Anderson even does his own paint - so they feel even more as pieces of art as well as craft.

Absolutely agree--and E-Ritchie has made similar comments about how his generation of builders thought they were copying "the masters" of frame building, but in fact ended up going somewhere quite different, with levels of care and finish rarely found on the English and Euro mass produced bikes... Baylis was certainly in that category. And there are some modern masters, like our own Dave Kirk (and others). Oddly then there has been some backwards induction, with craft produced bikes from European builders.

The case in point is taking a close look at an older Cinelli and spotting the file marks etc, or looking at some of the English bikes and seeing incomplete fill on the shoreline of lugs etc--yet the particular bikes may ride wonderfully (as did my first borrowed race bike, a Cinelli 'B').

[DCilliams]

Completely agree. I’d never read Baylis before. I posted the quote because 1) I think he was pretty good writer and 2) his perspective was a sort of behind the curtain moment for me, especially as one who fell into this world only about a decade ago.

[jtbadge]

Here I was, thinking all of the Medici drama was about the Hair Bandit.

[paredown]

Originally Posted by jtbadge

Here I was, thinking all of the Medici drama was about the Hair Bandit.

Yes--Mike Howard. He's been on the CR list off and on, and I remember that fairly recently he and Baylis had a plan to make some more bikes under the Wizard name, but I don't know if that came to fruition or not before Brian died. IIRC, the CR folks may have taken up a collection to help him to buy back one of his early frames in the last while...I can't recall if it was a Wizard or a Medici.

My late filet brazed Simo is pretty nicely done, so even if he started out as part of the 'B' team (lower in the pecking order than Confente) he was paying attention and working his craft. The moment of truth would be looking at it with the paint off, which I have not done...

[GOTHBROOKS]

my old medici kicked ass. apparently howard brazed it. i dunno if its true but its the story i was told and the one i believed. maybe they only said that because i myself have long hair. i had it built with both 7800 and c-rec but sold it because at that point i did not need a 1" headtube in my life. i still dont. except my paramount. im never getting rid of that one.
i heard mike was posting on craigslist after he got released that he was available for frame repairs and things like that. i wonder if hes still doing that. or showing up to that pasadena vintage ride.
i have some replacement confente decals laying around somewhere too even though ill never own one of those. it tripped me out at the time because they use the same font/typeface/logo whatever you want to call it as medici and masi.

anyway, heres some medici catalogs i scanned way back when.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/botani...57666829908836

[Doug Fattic]

I was good friends with Brian Baylis even though our lifestyles could not have been more different and we would usually sit together at frame building gatherings. Herbie Helm who I taught how to build frames (and helps me teach my frame building classes) visited him just a couple days before Brian died. Apparently neither one realized how near the very end it was going to be for Brian. Herbie helped Brian carry his oxygen tank (for breathing) around as he showed him his shop.

What I got from reading Brian’s words is that sometimes’s the public’s reputation of a builder and the actual quality of what they do are not the same. Mario Confente can be judged from several points of view. European bicycle frames made in the early 70’s were generally made to a price a working class person could afford. I paid $350 for my Confente made fully Campy equipped Italian Masi in the fall of 1972. It was made superior to most european frames of that time period but not what is possible if someone like Brian took his time. So compared to European contemporaries a Confente is better but it is not at the same level an American can do now. The price difference allows for extra work.

Another thing I got from his post is that some people don’t like working with each other.

Where I learned how to build frames in 1975 at Ellis Briggs in Shipley was 17 miles from Bob Jackson in Leeds. They were gracious in allowing me to visit their frame shop. There were like 6 young guys (late teens/early 20s) working under a foreman that could make several frames a day. At that time a painted 531 frame cost just over $100. There would be no profit margin if they spent a longer time fussing with lug filing and other niceties. Where I was at Ellis Briggs, Andrew and I would take the better part of a week to make one frame. Jack Briggs didn’t need the income from the frame business for his multi-employee bike shop. They provided prestige. But a typical customer would look at the paint job and price and base his opinion on that rather then some other time consuming details. Brian liked to customize lugs and put frills on a paint job (as do I) and could easily spend 100 or more hours per frame. I can't speak for him but I am sure it was frustrating when a less knowledgeable person couldn't see the difference between something like a Jackson and his frames.

[Vonruden]

This one is getting miles, however only on sunny days when the road salt has washed away.


Brake Details



On the road again...

Bocce courts

Bilenky did a nice job repairing a damaged drop out

[pbarry]

^^ What a gem! Nice work with the restoration and build. Thanks for posting.

[duff_duffy]

Beautiful build, love the groupset.

Originally Posted by Vonruden

This one is getting miles, however only on sunny days when the road salt has washed away.


Brake Details



On the road again...

Bocce courts

Bilenky did a nice job repairing a damaged drop out

[Devotion]

Wow. LOVE the color. Did Bilenky do the paint?

[Vonruden]

Originally Posted by Devotion

Wow. LOVE the color. Did Bilenky do the paint?

Paint is original, however he matched the dropout perfectly.

[Waldo]

Snip:

Originally Posted by paredown

Yes--Mike Howard. He's been on the CR list off and on, and I remember that fairly recently he and Baylis had a plan to make some more bikes under the Wizard name, but I don't know if that came to fruition or not before Brian died.

I believe a handful of new Wizards were delivered to a lucky few.

[El Chaba]

Great bike VonRuden!

[bocobiking]

So, I’m a person who enjoys lugged steel frames from the 70’s and 80’s. I love the ride on all of my bikes, which include an early Richard Sachs, a Columbine, a Paramount, and a Gangl. I’ve always been proud of my stable of beautiful classic bikes, but now I’m wondering, if a Confente is considered a mediocre bike, maybe mine are just mediocre.

I know I’m just a “layman” when it comes to knowing about frames, so I’m wondering if those of you who are a bit more expert could educate me on how you assess the quality of a frame.

[smontanaro]

Originally Posted by bocobiking

So, I’m a person who enjoys lugged steel frames from the 70’s and 80’s. I love the ride on all of my bikes, which include an early Richard Sachs, a Columbine, a Paramount, and a Gangl. I’ve always been proud of my stable of beautiful classic bikes, but now I’m wondering, if a Confente is considered a mediocre bike, maybe mine are just mediocre.

I know I’m just a “layman” when it comes to knowing about frames, so I’m wondering if those of you who are a bit more expert could educate me on how you assess the quality of a frame.

I think you're good.

I think it's hard to divorce the mystique from the craftsmanship. You also have to consider that Confente was only 33 when he died. Had he lived and continued producing frames in the US for another 30+ years, who's to say that his quality wouldn't have rivaled current and recent American framebuilders? Or that the mystique would be lessened as his frame count increased?