OT - What's going on in France

[wc1934]

Is it really the high fuel prices and high cost of living, or what?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...as-batons.html

[efixler]

It kind of looks like the right-wing parties are using gas taxes as an excuse to riot.

[Peter P.]

The origin of the riots were people protesting a significant increase in gas taxes.

Gas costs roughly $6/gallon. The tax increase was claimed to hurt the working class, although I don't know how much the tax increase was, as well as whether the increased revenue would be earmarked for a particular fund or just general operations.

I'd like to have a deeper understanding of the causes, myself.

The meaning of the riots has morphed beyond just the tax increase.

I also think the violent rioting is just the typical anarchy that happens when large groups of unorganized people gather. It starts peaceful then...

[CunegoFan]

Originally Posted by efixler

It kind of looks like the right-wing parties are using gas taxes as an excuse to riot.

Yes. Jean-Luc Melenchon is very right wing. Very.

[likebikes]

just business as usual.

[jet sanchez]

The tax on diesel fuel went up by a fair bit and it pissed off a lot of people.

Europe in general is trying to get off of diesel because it burns so dirty but a lot of industry depends on it, the yellow vest movement has just spread to Belgium and the Netherlands too.

A few years ago the pollution was so bad in Paris that cars were not allowed into the city for a week. Currently the city centre is going car-free for the first Sunday of every month.

[verticaldoug]

Originally Posted by wc1934

Is it really the high fuel prices and high cost of living, or what?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...as-batons.html

you should probably start from about a year ago when Macron significantly lowered the wealth tax on people with assets above 1,300,000euro. Since then, he has been battling the label of President of the Rich. (40 year old former investment banker, who'd have guessed)

Raising taxes 2.6cts/liter a year for the next 4 years is the plan. Its a regressive tax which was just a thumb in the eye of people already bitter about taxes becoming more regressive in general.

[Tony T]

Been going on for 3 weeks, and the first time I heard about it was yesterday in the NYTimes.

[rain dogs]

Most petroleum based fuel sources are highly subsidized by government... certainly in the US, Canada, Spain and I'm very certain in France as well.

Taxes are basic economic disincentives for things we don't want people to buy so much.

Anthropogenic accelerated climate change is real, scientifically agreed upon and proven.

I don't see what the problem is, but people seem to be protesting against inevitability and reduced carbon impacts.

High gas prices lead to the complete and total transformation of the Netherlands from one of the highest car using countries in the 70's to one of the lowest today.

Again. I don't see what the problem is other than perhaps poor communication and political discourse, but in terms of automobile fuels (gas and diesel) this should be seen as a good example, and we'd be well served that prices were much, much higher.

Single user, vehicular trips need to be massively disincentivized.

On a related Madrid just started "Madrid Central" on Friday, where an 472 hectare central zone of Madrid now has massively restricted traffic use in order to combat some of the highest air pollution levels in Europe.

[Mzilliox]

Originally Posted by rain dogs

Most petroleum based fuel sources are highly subsidized by government... certainly in the US, Canada, Spain and I'm very certain in France as well.

Taxes are basic economic disincentives for things we don't want people to buy so much.

Anthropogenic accelerated climate change is real, scientifically agreed upon and proven.

I don't see what the problem is, but people seem to be protesting against inevitability and reduced carbon impacts.

High gas prices lead to the complete and total transformation of the Netherlands from one of the highest car using countries in the 70's to one of the lowest today.

Again. I don't see what the problem is other than perhaps poor communication and political discourse, but in terms of automobile fuels (gas and diesel) this should be seen as a good example, and we'd be well served that prices were much, much higher.

Single user, vehicular trips need to be massively disincentivized.

On a related Madrid just started "Madrid Central" on Friday, where an 472 hectare central zone of Madrid now has massively restricted traffic use in order to combat some of the highest air pollution levels in Europe.

yes, public transport is in place, whats the complaint? i get it, but they will be seen as a good example one day, and we will have to follow suit rather than having some blowhard trying to artificially hold gas prices down via gangsterism. the world needs to Wake the eff up to reality. we are a selfish bunch of fools with our cars and need to use fossil fuels as though we didn;t know the story any more.

[jlwdm]

France wants to ban the sale of gas and diesel cars by 2040. Paris plans to ban all gas and diesel cars by 2030.

Jeff

[rnhood]

Originally Posted by rain dogs

Again. I don't see what the problem is other than perhaps poor communication and political discourse, but in terms of automobile fuels (gas and diesel) this should be seen as a good example, and we'd be well served that prices were much, much higher.

Single user, vehicular trips need to be massively disincentivized.

On a related Madrid just started "Madrid Central" on Friday, where an 472 hectare central zone of Madrid now has massively restricted traffic use in order to combat some of the highest air pollution levels in Europe.

I disagree. The only fair way is to ration it, though I don't favor that either. Anyway, rich Joe should be affected the same as poor Joe. I don't have so much of a problem with what Madrid did, and more of this might be a good thing. But as far as a gas tax is concerned, everyone needs to feel the pain, not just the ordinary Joe.

[Blue Jays]

Very easy for residents in urban corridors to say ”take the train or bus” and not stop to think those in rural areas may have to drive 100 miles to reach a store. Those same decent and hardworking people are producing the food the rest of the nation needs.
As far as France, all those torched cars just released lots of thick oily smoke into the air, specifically against Paris Accords guidance.

[CunegoFan]

Originally Posted by jet sanchez

The tax on diesel fuel went up by a fair bit and it pissed off a lot of people.

The tax is rather minor. A good part of the increase is due to changing oil prices. The tax is just a spark that set off a situation that has been simmering for a very long time. France is just like the U.S. and other developed Western nations; the economies of rural areas have been hollowed out by globalization, deindustrialization, and general neglect. The dynamic is different in France because rebellion is nearly a human right. It is ingrained in the culture. What's the point of being French if you cannot occasionally man the barricades and vent your frustration?

The protests enjoy broad support with the public. As they have grown, the usual provocateurs from the extremes of the left and the right combined with hooligans and criminals taking advantage have turned the protests violent.

Macron is the perfect bete noire for the situation. He is a rich elitist who talks down to the people, and he was only elected because of aversion to the alternative. Even much of the public who voted for him don't like him. People like Macron being in control are the reason parts of Le Pen's message have resonance, even among those who will not vote for her for fear of the consequences it might bring. It is the same thing that is seen throughout Western democracies, where the political aristocracy has failed the average citizen.

[rain dogs]

Originally Posted by rnhood

I disagree. The only fair way is to ration it, though I don't favor that either. Anyway, rich Joe should be affected the same as poor Joe. I don't have so much of a problem with what Madrid did, and more of this might be a good thing. But as far as a gas tax is concerned, everyone needs to feel the pain, not just the ordinary Joe.

We can start a conversation about rich people feeling the same pain as poor people and it'll be over before it begins. I also think that's the wrong way to look at it anyway.

Again, the Netherlands had rich and poor people. They still have rich and poor people. The fuel crisis of the 70's, was tackled there by a set of much more courageous and forward thinking people than in other parts of the world. That shift led to the establishment one of the largest and most developed bicycle infrastructures that exist in the world today. And their culture adapted. And poor people ride bicycles, and guess what rich people ride bicycles there too. With some of the highest % of daily trips done by bicycle (more than 50%). Lower car usage than nearly anywhere in Europe, from what was prior to that one of the highest.

None of that would have happened if they got stuck in the mud of 'share the pain' and 'the rich and poor need to be equal' when they are not, never have been and never will be.

They got thinking, doing and adapting.... three very simple, very underrated actions. And now, somewhat poetically, when rich people ride the same bikes as poor people they are much closer to be equal than prior.

France... well, I guess they protest rising fuel prices and a small minority decide setting things on fire will do something. To that I say: Welcome to our inevitable future