OT: "The Miseducation of the American Boy."

[mhespenheide]

Originally Posted by HenryA

Please clarify who needs to be punished and why.

Do you think that people who have long abused their power should not be held accountable?

[peanutgallery]

Oh the irony, a thread from a few days ago

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=234675

[verticaldoug]

Originally Posted by Bruce K

Middle school girls are far more mean/cruel than boys

BK

I think you are equating verbal abuse as being worse than physical abuse.
I tend to think the murder and rape as the worse. Although rare, it is predominately male on female.
(throw in alcohol for decision impairment, and you get the perfect storm)

[Bruce K]

Not going that far (I think those issues start in high school and beyond) but there seems to be more fights between girls, bullying, harassment, and disregard for rules and authority from girls in that age group.

BK

[d_douglas]

Originally Posted by Bruce K

Middle school girls are far more mean/cruel than boys

BK

I have heard this many times and don’t look forward to next year when my very sweet and sensitive daughter will go into Middle School (aka Grade 6). I fear she will be eaten alive!

[verticaldoug]

Originally Posted by FlashUNC

It reads like a Find and Replace of Frederic Wertham's Seduction of the Innocent.

Toxic masculinity is real and serious problem, but blaming it on the culture of the moment reeks of excusing behavior that comes from a deeper and more timeless place. This all existed long before Twitter.

so true.

The tale of the Rape of the Sabine Women from ancient Rome is just one of many from history. There are many older. Or Korean comfort women for the Imperial Japanese Army n WW2. If you want something more modern, rape of the women in the Congo by the military.

Three very different cultures, different times, but commonality.

March 8th in International Woman's Day. In London, something like 110 nationalities participate in the march, it seems the one thing different cultures have in common is violence versus women.

[HenryA]

Originally Posted by mhespenheide

Do you think that people who have long abused their power should not be held accountable?

I think we would want an individualized determination of guilt and punishment. Not a witch hunt based on any class categories that might be presumed to be culpable. The later seems to be au courant.

[XXtwindad]

Originally Posted by Bruce K

Middle school girls are far more mean/cruel than boys

BK

Ample evidence for this. Definitely a concern as the Father of twin girls. But what do we call this? Toxic femininity? An unfortunate byproduct of estrogen? Or just high school?

[XXtwindad]

Originally Posted by verticaldoug

so true.

The tale of the Rape of the Sabine Women from ancient Rome is just one of many from history. There are many older. Or Korean comfort women for the Imperial Japanese Army n WW2. If you want something more modern, rape of the women in the Congo by the military.

Three very different cultures, different times, but commonality.

March 8th in International Woman's Day. In London, something like 110 nationalities participate in the march, it seems the one thing different cultures have in common is violence versus women.

No arguments here. One of the truest and most accurate hallmarks of a civilized society is how many rights women are afforded. But that's a separate argument from the book.

[XXtwindad]

Originally Posted by HenryA

Please clarify who needs to be punished and why.

I did read the whole article and don’t think the author missed a single morsel of stereotypical man hate.

The men who have systemically harassed, abused, and assaulted women need to be punished to the full extent of the law. Simple as that.

I don't know that the author exhibits hatred toward men. I wouldn't go that far. I just thinks she's guilty of sloppy journalism. She had a premise in search of a book. Using outliers (such as the kid so bottled up he needed to watch Holocaust movies in order to cry) makes for compelling reading but it uses a very broad brush.

I think the author conflates "masculinity" with "testosterone." One is a social construct and one is biological. Sixteen year-old boys who prioritize getting laid are not exhibiting "toxic masculinity." That's call "testosterone." How it manifests itself is a different matter.

[joosttx]

Originally Posted by XXtwindad

The men who have systemically harassed, abused, and assaulted women need to be punished to the full extent of the law. Simple as that.

I don't know that the author exhibits hatred toward men. I wouldn't go that far. I just thinks she's guilty of sloppy journalism. She had a premise in search of a book. Using outliers (such as the kid so bottled up he needed to watch Holocaust movies in order to cry) makes for compelling reading but it uses a very broad brush.

I think the author conflates "masculinity" with "testosterone." One is a social construct and one is biological. Sixteen year-old boys who prioritize getting laid are not exhibiting "toxic masculinity." That's call "testosterone." How it manifests itself is a different matter.

Testosterone.... A few months my son and I were riding up Mt Tam and we passed a group of female MTBers, who were on a bike shop womens only MTB ride. My son, 8 years old, sans shirt sped up and passed them. He was clearly attempting to pass them with speed. As I casually passed them one of the women in a not so nice tone said: "He's got a lot of testosterone." I quickly thought that was a really weird thing to say. So I just replied, "Yup they're born with it".

I really hate the articles that you are posting up because they are simply rehashes of old stories with a modern spin to them. I learn nothing from reading it other than some more precise facts. Maybe I am already woke and dont know it. The solutions are simple but to execute is difficult. Maybe not difficult but hard. Like training for cycling, no short cuts exist- a climbing bike isn't going to help you climb better if you are not trained.

Toxic masculinity has been in existence ever since Adam's balls drop. How do you fix it.... well be a good parent and community. Teaching boys (since this is the subject) how to act is the duty of the parents. It is like nailing jello to a wall. But just because it is like that doesn't mean you don't focus on doing a good job at it.

[tomato coupe]

Originally Posted by joosttx

I really hate the articles that you are posting up because they are simply rehashes of old stories with a modern spin to them.

Rehashed, with new buzzwords.

[unterhausen]

My son turned out to be a really nice guy. My daughter recently told me he was really horrible when he was 13. Never saw any evidence, but I believe it, I was too.

Originally Posted by joosttx

Testosterone.... A few months my son and I were riding up Mt Tam and we passed a group of female MTBers, who were on a bike shop womens only MTB ride. My son, 8 years old, sans shirt sped up and passed them. He was clearly attempting to pass them with speed. As I casually passed them one of the women in a not so nice tone said: "He's got a lot of testosterone." I quickly thought that was a really weird thing to say. So I just replied, "Yup they're born with it".

I like to pass people I don't know definitively, seems like the best thing for everyone involved.

I remember when I was in pretty good shape a few years ago, and went out to ride up Rattlesnake Pike to Black Moshannon. I caught some women riding together chatting. One of them really didn't like being passed, and dropped the other one. I feel like it had something to do with me being a pudgy 55 y.o. on a ratty bike I bought in 1982, but I'm probably reading something into it that wasn't there. Anyway, I have always felt bad for breaking up their nice ride together. And she never caught me, even after trying for 5 miles.

[XXtwindad]

Originally Posted by joosttx

Testosterone.... A few months my son and I were riding up Mt Tam and we passed a group of female MTBers, who were on a bike shop womens only MTB ride. My son, 8 years old, sans shirt sped up and passed them. He was clearly attempting to pass them with speed. As I casually passed them one of the women in a not so nice tone said: "He's got a lot of testosterone." I quickly thought that was a really weird thing to say. So I just replied, "Yup they're born with it".

I really hate the articles that you are posting up because they are simply rehashes of old stories with a modern spin to them. I learn nothing from reading it other than some more precise facts. Maybe I am already woke and dont know it. The solutions are simple but to execute is difficult. Maybe not difficult but hard. Like training for cycling, no short cuts exist- a climbing bike isn't going to help you climb better if you are not trained.

Toxic masculinity has been in existence ever since Adam's balls drop. How do you fix it.... well be a good parent and community. Teaching boys (since this is the subject) how to act is the duty of the parents. It is like nailing jello to a wall. But just because it is like that doesn't mean you don't focus on doing a good job at it.

Interesting anecdote. Telling, perhaps. You mentioned the articles (plural) that I cite, so I'm not sure what your referring to, but this is a discussion forum, and this article was the cover story on a nationally recognized magazine covering a topic most of us on the Forum has first hand experience with. So I think it's fully within the realm of acceptability to offer it up for discussion. As for your "wokeness," that's not for me to comment on...

[paulh]

Originally Posted by Louis

What is this, Grumpy Old Man weekend or something?

No, that's not until next weekend.
https://www.wabashamn.org/grumpyoldmenfest/