A 3 hour, 21 minute documentary about -7

[Black Dog]

Originally Posted by Burnette

Exactly. At work, with family, if I was on my bike people all around would ask me the latest of how "we" (winning American in the Tour!) were doing in the tour. The bike biz exploded, more people got into riding. And the doped racing? It was incredible to watch. The break aways, the climbing attacks, counter attacks. Team time trials and oh, the sprints.

Now it's like a band that made some good music and we rehash the dark side of the drug abuse that went on while they were putting out albums.

The racing sucked; as far as Lance's teams and the TDF is concerned. Boring and super predictable. Get on the front with your super team, hammer all the other teams and then let Lance roll to the finish line and repeat. Team Sky/Ineos has assumed the mantle of making sure that from a spectators point of view theTDF is super boring. Well at least Sky/Ineos are clean... Radios, Power Meters, all combined with "marginal gains" have turned cycling from a chess game to checkers and then to tic tac toe. They collectively found a way to remove the entertainment aspect of the the business that they are in: sports entertainment!

[Burnette]

Originally Posted by KonaSS

I will watch. I do find Lance 2.0 interesting as a human. I listen to his podcast. I am not sure I would ever want to be his friend. But I think I find his thoughts and opinions interesting cause they are often different from mine, and he does have great knowledge and insight of the sport.

I also think that Lance doesn't get the credit for the incredible rise in popularity of cycling in the US during his reign. How many bikes were sold (even by custom builders)? How much more coverage do we get of the sport do we get now? A rising tide lifts all boats and all that.

Like most, Lance is multifaceted. I really enjoyed the podcast of Lance and Bobke talking about the past, the people, the bikes, the races, it's a real glimpse into what it was like then.

And people can hate Lance, he deserves it, but there's no denying that he did raise cycling to an amazing level of awareness. Not just here either, but worldwide. And your last point has always been my rant, they all knew it was going on, promoters, teams/riders, component/bike makers and they all made millions and millions from the "show". And then they acted like only one dude did it. The truth is that doping never left after Lance did and it was there before he came. He was just really, really good at it.

[Black Dog]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

With a decent doctor and intimate knowledge of the rules, amounts, etc., probably wasn't that hard then..probably tougher now but sure, still out there, in every professional(and lots of amateur) sport in existence...
I think the most common these days is blood doping via your own blood..transfusions..I don't think there is a test for that. Maybe circumstantial, finding empty bags, needles and such but not for actual 'your blood back in', type stuff. Still use the really antiquated hematocrit level test. Biological passport..these big boys hematocrit stays amazingly steady during a 3 week race..it 'should' go down..hmmm....

Geez, even golfers dope.

Easily picked up with the biological passport protocols when WADA is not working against the testers to prevent positives. WADA has very little credibility among athletes any more.

[Burnette]

Originally Posted by Black Dog

The racing sucked; as far as Lance's teams and the TDF is concerned. Boring and super predictable. Get on the front with your super team, hammer all the other teams and then let Lance roll to the finish line and repeat. Team Sky/Ineos has assumed the mantle of making sure that from a spectators point of view theTDF is super boring. Well at least Sky/Ineos are clean... Radios, Power Meters, all combined with "marginal gains" have turned cycling from a chess game to checkers and then to tic tac toe. They collectively found a way to remove the entertainment aspect of the the business that they are in: sports entertainment!

We'll have to agree to disagree then. YouTube is full of awesome riding from those days. They doped but they still had to ride. The climbing was just amazing. After so long on a climb, there were awesome attacks, then amazing counter attacks. Hoe could they even do that! Drugs!

The sprints, the breakaways, racing was awesome back then.

[jemdet]

Originally Posted by KonaSS

I don't know what this means.

Not in the industry, but I would bet if you looked at the total sales of the vast majority of bike manufacturers, bikes shops, etc. before and during his time in the sport, you would see a noticeable upturn.

I guess Filippo Simeoni decided to take his boat and sail home.

The sales statement is probably true on the whole, but the guy in the Della Santa jersey would like a word.

The "everyone did it and people only focus on Lance" argument is pretty tired. It wasn't just the doping.

[Black Dog]

Originally Posted by Burnette

We'll have to agree to disagree then. YouTube is full of awesome riding from those days. They doped but they still had to ride. The climbing was just amazing. After so long on a climb, there were awesome attacks, then amazing counter attacks. Hoe could they even do that! Drugs!

The sprints, the breakaways, racing was awesome back then.

Well outside the tour yes, in the tour not so much and it does not take drugs to race like that. In fact when everyone is super doped then you see the best doped rider climb away from everyone, no counter attacks just a Lance TT to the finish line. Watch racing before EPO and you will be amazed at how dynamic it was. The 86, 87, and 89 tours come to mind.

[peanutgallery]

-7 got to keep most of his wealth and you would think he'd be happy with that, but he probably misses the adulation and what not as he is and always has been... selfish. Hence, the contant PR campaign to rehabilitate the image

As a narcissist and sociopath, fawning and free stuff is the key to his cold, dark heart. Assuming all of his Livestrong branded stuff is getting a little dated and worn out. Being a pariah is the worst thing that could happen....and deservedly so

[choke]

Originally Posted by Black Dog

The racing sucked; as far as Lance's teams and the TDF is concerned. Boring and super predictable. Get on the front with your super team, hammer all the other teams and then let Lance roll to the finish line and repeat. Team Sky/Ineos has assumed the mantle of making sure that from a spectators point of view theTDF is super boring. Well at least Sky/Ineos are clean... Radios, Power Meters, all combined with "marginal gains" have turned cycling from a chess game to checkers and then to tic tac toe. They collectively found a way to remove the entertainment aspect of the the business that they are in: sports entertainment!

The TdFs during the -7 years were sooo boring that I stopped watching or even following them. And I haven't returned.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by FlashUNC

Tyler Hamilton outlined it in some detail in his book as to the how. Everyone got a specific cocktail based on a bit of testing and learning to see who responded best to what drugs, EPO, HGH and all that, with Ferrari as the doctor the guys were mostly going to. Lots of shuffling the drugs around via wives and girlfriends since they weren't scrutinized as much as official team personnel. And later they moved from in-season drug programs to blood transfusions for the third weeks of Tours.

Yes, Hamilton and some others have given us a picture of how the Armstrong doping program worked. But the question really is: Has Armstrong himself given any details (who, what, how) of his doping? As far as I know, he's only spoken in generalities, and never given any details. Oh, except that he was specific in that he never called Betsy Andreu "fat".

[bicycletricycle]

I'm excited , Armstrong's has lived a crazy life.

[FlashUNC]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

Yes, Hamilton and some others have given us a picture of how the Armstrong doping program worked. But the question really is: Has Armstrong himself given any details (who, what, how) of his doping? As far as I know, he's only spoken in generalities, and never given any details. Oh, except that he was specific in that he never called Betsy Andreu "fat".

I don't think we'll ever be getting that. That would be dwelling on what he got caught doing, and that's not in keeping with the rehab campaign. He'd rather talk about the fun stuff in his past.

[pdmtong]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

Yes, Hamilton and some others have given us a picture of how the Armstrong doping program worked. But the question really is: Has Armstrong himself given any details (who, what, how) of his doping? As far as I know, he's only spoken in generalities, and never given any details. Oh, except that he was specific in that he never called Betsy Andreu "fat".

thanks - I know we all have heard generally how it was done but I just did not recall anything specific, especially said by -7 himself.

[Tony T]

Originally Posted by Tickdoc

I can barely stomach any of his podcasts when my “ I’m still a fan” cycling buddy sends them to me. How the hell am I supposed to endure this?

You do know that you don’t have to listen to those podcasts or watch the documentary, don’t you?

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by peanutgallery

-7 got to keep most of his wealth and you would think he'd be happy with that, but he probably misses the adulation and what not as he is and always has been... selfish. Hence, the contant PR campaign to rehabilitate the image

As a narcissist and sociopath, fawning and free stuff is the key to his cold, dark heart. Assuming all of his Livestrong branded stuff is getting a little dated and worn out. Being a pariah is the worst thing that could happen....and deservedly so

Ignoring whether or not anyone should support him after all that has transpired, as a person who is still alive, he's got to do something with his time. He hasn't developed an easily transferrable skillset--he knows bike racing and how to shill products, that's about it. I'm 7 years younger than he was when he was banned from cycling, and if someone told me now I had to completely change careers, I would struggle. I'm sure many people think that's only fair punishment for what he's done, but it seems unreasonable to expect him to impose additional arbitrary punishments on himself just because many think he hasn't been punished enough.

If you could make a million dollars doing a three week podcast during the Tour de France, would you say no?

[Tony Edwards]

I find Armstrong a really interesting figure and would absolutely watch this documentary. He is a seriously flawed human being but I find it hard to understand the outright hatred that some members have toward him.