Kingdom Trail Landowners banning Cyclists from KTA properties

[echelon_john]

Amazing place to ride but what a *****show on summer weekends. If it were my land I'd have a tough time with it too.

Can definitely see the landowner perspective on this but it's a shame they couldn't have come to some partial agreement to keep the trail system from being as gutted as it apparently has been.

[DeBike]

Do you want others coming onto your property and abusing, not only the land, but you yourself. Do you want to give up control of how many others can use your land, and how they use it. Land ownership comes with rights and responsibilities. Closing down property that one owns to others is a right. Closing said property down to others that are abusing the property is a responsibility.

[unterhausen]

I'm glad Rothrock Forest hasn't exploded like that. There is one gravel road to an IMBA Epic that is overrun by jerks with mountain bikes on the back of their giant SUVs and pickups. The ride to that trail from town is very nice (excpet for the mountain bikers) and not that far. I'll bet nobody rides it.

We do have trouble with land access issues due to the fact that there are plenty of mtb'ers that are jerks. One very popular trail seems to be permanently closed and there are constant threats of closing another. I suppose a lot of it is due to the fact that it all looks like state forest land, but there are signs and sometimes even ropes to keep you on track.

[druptight]

Originally Posted by DeBike

Do you want others coming onto your property and abusing, not only the land, but you yourself. Do you want to give up control of how many others can use your land, and how they use it. Land ownership comes with rights and responsibilities. Closing down property that one owns to others is a right. Closing said property down to others that are abusing the property is a responsibility.

I don't disagree with your points about rights and usage. However, keep in mind that these people signed agreements with an organization SPECIFICALLY allowing this public usage and insuring them related to that usage. So to say you're fed up people are using your land when you explicitly earmarked it for such usage is a little odd.

That said, if some jerk on my property was giving me a hard time for using it when he's the guest - it'd be pissed too. I fully understand the reasoning (assuming all the 3rd hand stories are true).

[parris]

I didn't read the article so may be ignorant on the subject. I can say that when we owned our farms my dad would allow just about anyone access for hu ting, fishing, snowmobiling, cc skiing, etc. He had one rule which was to not tear up the roads and fields when the land was wet. At one point too many ignored this resulting in him posting and shutting down ALL access.

His reason for giving access was simply because he was a good guy and believed that it was wrong to not give others access for what they wanted as long as it didn't damage things.

[YoKev]

Originally Posted by tele

Everything here is 3rd or worse hand: from what I've heard the main landowner, Burrington's, own like 500 acres on both sides of Darling Hill Rd. I've heard the wife has told people that she hates mtb/ers...she is a horse person. I've attached a map of the affected areas...pretty substantial f'up to access....

Somehow, I suspected this had something to do with horse people.
My second guess was French Canadian tourists

I’ll still go this summer, but it won’t be the same.

[572cv]

Twas eer thus. An idea realized and then overcome by its own success, by visitors who's values are, to be kind, different. But there will always be people who will take advantage of a situation, or do what they want despite the consequences. Its kind of why cities and towns have to have zoning. Why people get thrown out of cycling events for substance abuse. The 'A few bad apples' syndrome.

So, no one who has commented is surprised. Just dismayed and saddened. But generally, the bike community is great, and the back country riders are good at self policing and good at respect for landowners. I think that inherent strength will rise to the fore, and this growth hickup will be overcome. Someone else mentioned the snowmobile community and their trail network....in Vermont it is called V.A.S.T. (vermont association of snow travelers). They do a fine job of policing their members and building good will with landowners all over the state. I have neighbors who go from Hinesburg up to Morrisville for lunch when the snow is good. I think a system will emerge that makes it work, and follow the example of groups like VAST.

[tele]

Originally Posted by YoKev

Somehow, I suspected this had something to do with horse people.
My second guess was French Canadian tourists

I’ll still go this summer, but it won’t be the same.

My default groups for screwing things up.

But really its horse people. Our little trail network in my small town has zero issues except for the horse people...no common sense or ability to think of others.

[josephr]

Originally Posted by tele

My default groups for screwing things up.

But really its horse people. Our little trail network in my small town has zero issues except for the horse people...no common sense or ability to think of others.

oh yeah...its not us, its that 'other group' of people who are so rude and inconsiderate.

same old argument here as always been....we want to protect our natural, wild lands but make them available for those to enjoy. Nothing different from Yellowstone or Yosemite being over-run with tourists seeking the quiet, natural, pristine environments that are no longer pristine due to the sheer number of human visitors.

A local group here called "Forever Wild" was formed to preserve several large amounts of space to remain 'untouched' for refuge for wild critters and maintain their 'wildness'...Severel John Muir type managed to procure or convince land owners to sell the 'natural rights' to the organizations set aside 7-8 large tracts (1500+ acres). These lands now reduced taxable values and the organization is to pay their property taxes to maintain its newfound status. Unfortunately, they secured more land than they could afford to pay the taxes on, so they sought the State's assistance. Eventually the politicians got involved and now two of these 'forever wild' locations are now over-run with hikers, mountain bikers, and are regularly marketing as 'outdoors destinations' to drive the tourist dollar.

As a mtn biker, it really bothers me when I see trails over-rutted, cut-throughs built, or littered with Gu gel packets or plastic water bottles. Lets face it, some people don't deserve to be in the woods--and I'd probably include half the mtn bikers I've met in that group.

[merlinmurph]

Sounds like the trails are a victim of their own success. I'm guessing nobody envisioned the huge success of the trails and people driving to the Canadian border to ride, especially the landowners. I don't blame the landowners for backing out if riders are disrespecting the privilege to ride there.

Too bad, KT was a boon to the area.

[efixler]

I (obviously) don’t know what particular interactions sparked this, but I’ll say this: I’ve been to KT twice, both on crowded weekends, and everyone was pretty cool, even, umm, the nice folks from Quebec, who were not noticeably more inebriated than anyone else, and really not particularly noticeable except in that they were speaking French.


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[old fat man]

Originally Posted by merlinmurph

Sounds like the trails are a victim of their own success. I'm guessing nobody envisioned the huge success of the trails and people driving to the Canadian border to ride, especially the landowners. I don't blame the landowners for backing out if riders are disrespecting the privilege to ride there.

Too bad, KT was a boon to the area.

Unfortunately these 3 land owners have some of the best trails on their property which means they probably see almost every single visitor to KT - I doubt many mtb riders skip that area.

If the rest of the trails were as good and they could keep up with expanding the area, it would thin out the volume on these great trails. This may just increase total volume that much more though, making town "traffic" that much worse.

I have no good answer to offer the land owners that doesn't involve restricting access or buying them out so they can move feeling that they were well compensated.

[verticaldoug]

This Is Why Mountain Bikers Can’t Have Nice Things
by Bike Snob

https://www.outsideonline.com/240774...r-trail-access

Since my daughters both ride, I am sympathetic to the horse people. Especially if the horse person is the land owner.
I also thought common trail etiquette was horses have the right of way. Horses can be really stupid, so not wanting to have an out of control cyclists spook a horse and cause it to bolt makes perfect sense to me.

It reminds me of the house on Lincoln Pass just before it turns to dirt- sign reads Trespassers will be shot. Survivors will be shot again.

[MattTuck]

But he doesn’t think these riders understand that, despite the membership fee Kingdom Trails charges its users, there’s no “return” for property owners who make their land available to visitors; rather, they do it simply because they see it as a good use of the acreage and something that benefits the area.

Frankly, it is incumbent upon the organization to keep the riders in line. I'm surprised they don't compensate landowners in some way. And since they don't, they have an obligation to police rider behavior to avoid these types of things.

The "victim of your own success" thing is a crock. If there are too many people, increase the price or limit the number of passes available. You have a very precious thing and it needs to be protected.

Tragedy of the commons playing out in real time.