Is Shimano getting into the wireless game?

[Cicli]

Dont own any electronic groups. In fact I own nothing for my bike that takes a battery. This may add some competition to sHram though. It was just a matter of time.
https://www.bikeradar.com/us/road/ne...ireless-51967/

[tigoat]

I wonder how did they get around existing patents from SRAM. SRAM really did change the game in the field. I kind of enjoy the challenge of routing wires into difficult places but man wireless setup is so effortless to ignore. It will be interesting to see what Shimano has to offer.

[AngryScientist]

does not surprise me at all.

i dont see myself ever getting an electric group on any of my bikes, especially with how great the mechanical groups work. i also have the purist mentality, for better or worse that a bicycle is a simple machine that should be human powered.

that said, as a casual observer, the idea of wires always seemed to me like an in-between phase, on the way to wireless. some of the shimano stuff just looked like temporary hacks, and not a refined product at all. if you're going to go electric, wireless would be the way to go...

[ultraman6970]

Was about time, my issue is... what campagnolo will come up with?? They had electronic for centuries and they did not developed it till when they had more people eat a piece of the pie already. And would not surprise me campy had wireless already developed in somebody's desk sitting there for a very long time.

Now shimano did it... campagnolo need to come up with something because wirelss is the way to go when we are talking about electronic shifting.

[Caballero]

Ok, now this has come out I’ll add my encounter from a few weeks ago.

I live in Osaka, near Kyoto and Nara we have a lot of great riding and is also not too far from shimano hq.

Anyway, regular day just out on a training ride we came upon a shimano branded truck, 2 small cars and s couple of riders with alloy group sets with no wires to speak of. We rode past slowly looking at the bikes, I think it was the new wireless kit.
May not be too far off ???

[ultraman6970]

THe best of japanese industry is that their research and developing is fast as hell, that's why they beat up people at the game at the time to put sh..t out in the streets even if the stuff has glitches.

[Idris Icabod]

Originally Posted by tigoat

I wonder how did they get around existing patents from SRAM. SRAM really did change the game in the field. I kind of enjoy the challenge of routing wires into difficult places but man wireless setup is so effortless to ignore. It will be interesting to see what Shimano has to offer.

Does SRAM have an issued patent? Last time I looked at their application it was under final rejection from the USPTO because of obviousness over an existing wireless system. This was a couple/few years ago. Shimano’s is an application not a patent yet, it still needs examination.

Edit:

Found SRAM wireless patent for anyone interested:

https://patents.google.com/patent/US8909424

Granted December 2014

[chiasticon]

Originally Posted by AngryScientist

that said, as a casual observer, the idea of wires always seemed to me like an in-between phase, on the way to wireless.

same.

I'm OK with having batteries in my groupset (though I've only ever briefly owned an electronic group) but I mentally hate the idea that I could ever go grab a bike and it wouldn't work until I charged the group. and yes, I know the batteries last a long time, the idea just really bugs me. I hate it when I go to hop on my winter bike for the first time in nine months and the power meter battery is dead. but at least the bike still works then...

so, of course the cool part about that patent to me was the talk about "electric-energy generation elements." not sure we'll actually see that any time soon, but it's certainly intriguing. the basic idea that "hey, there's all kinds of energy being generated with the bike, let's harness some instead of using batteries everywhere." and Angry, maybe that would speak to your purist/human-powered vibe then...?

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by ultraman6970

Was about time, my issue is... what campagnolo will come up with?? They had electronic for centuries and they did not developed it till when they had more people eat a piece of the pie already. And would not surprise me campy had wireless already developed in somebody's desk sitting there for a very long time.

Now shimano did it... campagnolo need to come up with something because wirelss is the way to go when we are talking about electronic shifting.

shimano didn't 'do it'..they have a patent request..a long way from fielding anything. Remember the 14s shimano patent? How long ago was that?

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by chiasticon

so, of course the cool part about that patent to me was the talk about "electric-energy generation elements." not sure we'll actually see that any time soon, but it's certainly intriguing. the basic idea that "hey, there's all kinds of energy being generated with the bike, let's harness some instead of using batteries everywhere." and Angry, maybe that would speak to your purist/human-powered vibe then...?

Just a little contemplation ...

The original electronic shifting systems, Mavic's Zap and Mektronic, harvested power from the chain to drive the rear derailleur. That solution was cumbersome, and nobody particularly liked it. The actual control signals were powered by a smallish battery in the shifter (Zap and Mektronic was electronic for the rear derailleur only). But the Mavic systems used the battery to powered small solenoids; if the shifter only had to power a radio transmitter for a brief instant for each shift, it could get by with even less electrical power (as demonstrated by the coin cells in the SRAM shifters). I think it might be entirely possible to generate the required electrical power from the motion of the shift levers.

Of course, the downside to this is that it might require a little more force and motion to push the levers, and while it would probably not be as much force and motion as needed for mechanical levers, it would still detract from one of the stated advantages of electronic shifters (that it takes very little finger force or motion). The need to generate electrical power from lever motion might also make the size and shape of satellite shift buttons more problematic. So, while self-generation of electrical power in the lever is an interesting idea, I suspect that won't make it into production due the inconveniences it places on the size, shape and motion of the shift levers/buttons.

[echappist]

Originally Posted by Idris Icabod

Does SRAM have an issued patent? Last time I looked at their application it was under final rejection from the USPTO because of obviousness over an existing wireless system. This was a couple/few years ago. Shimano’s is an application not a patent yet, it still needs examination.

Edit:

Found SRAM wireless patent for anyone interested:

https://patents.google.com/patent/US8909424

Granted December 2014

There are related applications, with four of them seem to be related to hydraulic set-ups (what's reported in the bikeradar article) and one that's more general. Two claims of the latter have been indicated as allowable, with the rest rejected over a Sram application.

[93KgBike]

The power could come from induction circuits into capacitors. None of the form factors or mechanical actuation would be changed in this way. I think there are some existing lighting applications using this.

[54ny77]

Pros could just use the power generated by their internal batteries in the frame.

Look ma, it's magic!

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by 93KgBike

The power could come from induction circuits into capacitors. None of the form factors or mechanical actuation would be changed in this way. I think there are some existing lighting applications using this.

What's inducing the current into the capacitor? The most common ways to induce a current are electromagnetic induction (which for this application means moving a magnet by a coil) or the piezo effect (which requires squeezing a piezo crystal with sufficient force to release enough charge for the desired current). In either case, all the energy has to harvested from the rider pressing/moving something. While all of this is feasible, I don't think you'd be able to fit it into the same form factor as, say an SRAM Blip or Shimano Sprint Shifter.

[bikinchris]

Originally Posted by AngryScientist

does not surprise me at all.

i dont see myself ever getting an electric group on any of my bikes, especially with how great the mechanical groups work. i also have the purist mentality, for better or worse that a bicycle is a simple machine that should be human powered.

that said, as a casual observer, the idea of wires always seemed to me like an in-between phase, on the way to wireless. some of the shimano stuff just looked like temporary hacks, and not a refined product at all.

I'm really a purist at heart. But after selling an eTap bike, setting it up and test riding, I'm hooked.