Kirk Frameworks

[David Kirk]

Thanks for the post.

Here's some answers for you -

- How to measure? - the sarcastic and true answer are the same.....carefully, very carefully. Every variable needs to be sorted out for it to work.

- I have more room with the Steilacoom than the Barlow Pass....the Steila is smaller....or should I say truer to size. The Steila measures a true 38 where the Barlow is more like 41. How much room is there? I don't recall of the top of my head. I wouldn't do a stick-mud cross race on it but otherwise there's more than enough.

- Most people talk about tire width but it's not usually the width that is the issue....most often it's the height. Of course tires get taller as they get wider but some tires get taller than others. One needs to buy them all and measure them.

I hope that helps.

dave

Originally Posted by carlucci1106

Mr. Kirk,

I have a medium reach bike, but the brake pads aren't bottomed out in the slots- I also have the VO brake, but can only run a 700x35

My framebuilding curiosity is this; how does one measure the crown, fork legs, and dropouts to ensure the rim ends up in that exact spot?

Also, how much clearance do you have with the Steilacoom, on the sides, and top? I am blown away that you can get this tire comfortably in.

I measure about 3.7mm more that my pads could be in the slots. I also see that sides of the caliper arms have more clearance the lower the tire sits.

Just beautiful execution. That is a bike I would like to own someday. The myth of n=1 might be an obsolete mythos.

[carlucci1106]

Originally Posted by David Kirk

Thanks for the post.

Here's some answers for you -

- How to measure? - the sarcastic and true answer are the same.....carefully, very carefully. Every variable needs to be sorted out for it to work.
...
I hope that helps.

dave

Dave,
That was very much the answer I expected. I figured with curved legs, it's either legitimate calculus or tons of mock-up trials, plumb lines, etc, with the actual tire/rim combo.

Admittedly my question leads to a "will it fit in my bike, and do I dare try?" scenario. My inclination is better stick with the Bon Jon that I know will fit, based on the designer running some tests, as the bike was designed for Jack Browns. It was never intended to be a big tire gravel crusher. I do a couple short gravel events a year, and mostly enjoy long sojourns on country roads.

Looking at other similar bikes and same story... Redsky, BWC Continental, Hampsten SB, all seem like 38 might be shaving too close due the pads not being bottomed out--fork too short. Just seems like such a small tweak to get a big reward with tire choice-with a likely inperceptible geo change... Another "tip of my hat" to your pushing the envelope of design to make your craft stand out. Thanks for your reply, Mr. Kirk. Have a great day.

[David Kirk]

Originally Posted by carlucci1106

Dave,
That was very much the answer I expected. I figured with curved legs, it's either legitimate calculus or tons of mock-up trials, plumb lines, etc, with the actual tire/rim combo.

........

What one is really measuring is from the brake hole on the front face of the crown to the front axle center. It matters not that the blades are curved or straight or what type of crown is used....it's all about the brake hole to the axle center. Once you get rid of all the other stuff it's fairly simple.

dave

[AR2266]

Originally Posted by carlucci1106

Dave,
That was very much the answer I expected. I figured with curved legs, it's either legitimate calculus or tons of mock-up trials, plumb lines, etc, with the actual tire/rim combo..

I just remembered something i always wanted to ask Dave - though it may be a silly question.

Dave -

I've been reading what you have wrote over the years but i do not think i noticed much on the topic of forks - what is your view on straight forks? i know you prefer and stand-by curved blades. I started cycling with a steelie with a straight fork - Colnago's precisa fork. nothing particularly memorable i must say, as i probably was not pay attention trying to keep up with the pack.

Colnago touts their straight forks as easier to control, stable and safer..seemingly implying the reverse is true for curved forks.

Would you use fork blades from another manufacturer aside from Reynolds or
tubing, even for that matter, if a client requests for it?

[David Kirk]

Good morning -

Thanks for the questions.

I do prefer using curved blade forks for a few different reasons -

- I like the way curved blade forks ride better than a straight blade.
- I like the way curved blade forks look better than a straight blade.
- I like that I can give a curved blade fork any rake that I want by curving the blade more or less and that I'm not constrained by the angle built into the crown that limits the effective rake to a narrow range. My bikes get anything from 40 mm of rake to 55 mm and that's just not an option with a straight blade fork.
- lastly there aren't that many straight blade crowns available and it really limits the options for look and tire width.


I use Reynolds and some KVA tubes as needed. I work with both companies to get the tubes, blades, and stays that work best for me and my bikes. I know and completely trust the parts I get from these two companies and I literally stake my business life on their work. If someone comes to me and wants a bike built with Brand X tubes I tell them why I use the narrow range of parts that I use and if they still want Brand X I give them the best advice I can as to where they might get that bike built.

There are some builders who are what I think of as contract builders who will do most anything that the client wishes.....client can pick tubes and dropouts and geometry and have the bike built the way they would build it themself they had the tools and skills to do so. I think this path has merit in some cases.

Then there is the type of builder who works with their suppliers to get the qualities they want/need and they design and build the bike that they feel will work best for the client. They use their experience to insure that the riders gets the best bike they can offer. I am firmly in this camp. I often get requests from people who want something I know will not work well for them. Life is too short to build stuff just for a check all while knowing that the owner would enjoy their bike more if it were designed and built differently. About 35% of my customers go on to purchase a 2nd or 3rd or 5th bike from me so it feels like it's working out for both sides of the transaction.

I hope that makes sense.

dave

Originally Posted by AR2266

I just remembered something i always wanted to ask Dave - though it may be a silly question.

Dave -

I've been reading what you have wrote over the years but i do not think i noticed much on the topic of forks - what is your view on straight forks? i know you prefer and stand-by curved blades. I started cycling with a steelie with a straight fork - Colnago's precisa fork. nothing particularly memorable i must say, as i probably was not pay attention trying to keep up with the pack.

Colnago touts their straight forks as easier to control, stable and safer..seemingly implying the reverse is true for curved forks.

Would you use fork blades from another manufacturer aside from Reynolds or
tubing, even for that matter, if a client requests for it?

[Wakatel_Luum]

"There are some builders who are what I think of as contract builders who will do most anything that the client wishes.....client can pick tubes and dropouts and geometry and have the bike built the way they would build it themself they had the tools and skills to do so. I think this path has merit in some cases."

I currently have a frame designed by Tom Kellogg (Merlin Extralight Ti) and I love the fit/geometry. I've been riding it for decades and would like a really nice fillet brazed steel bike.

I had previously been looking at off the shelf frames recently but now I'm seriously considering a Kirk frame in the future, everything you do with your bikes ticks the boxes for me but I'm a bit worried about moving away from my current frame geometry and fit.

How do you deal with this situation with new prospective customers?

[David Kirk]

You’re not the first person who has a bike that was built for them that they love and they don’t want to move too far from the design. If the bike in question was designed by someone like Tom and you love the design then I don’t have an issue with using the existing numbers. Maybe more importantly I will never build something that the owner doesn’t want. We need to be 100% on the same page before I will consider doing metal work and we will go back and forth with design tweaks as long as necessary until we are both happy. This works very well and has for the past 20 years I’ve been doing this.

I hope that puts you at ease.

dave

Originally Posted by Wakatel_Luum

"There are some builders who are what I think of as contract builders who will do most anything that the client wishes.....client can pick tubes and dropouts and geometry and have the bike built the way they would build it themself they had the tools and skills to do so. I think this path has merit in some cases."

I currently have a frame designed by Tom Kellogg (Merlin Extralight Ti) and I love the fit/geometry. I've been riding it for decades and would like a really nice fillet brazed steel bike.

I had previously been looking at off the shelf frames recently but now I'm seriously considering a Kirk frame in the future, everything you do with your bikes ticks the boxes for me but I'm a bit worried about moving away from my current frame geometry and fit.

How do you deal with this situation with new prospective customers?

[PaMtbRider]

Originally Posted by Wakatel_Luum

[B][I]

I currently have a frame designed by Tom Kellogg (Merlin Extralight Ti) and I love the fit/geometry. I've been riding it for decades and would like a really nice fillet brazed steel bike.

I had previously been looking at off the shelf frames recently but now I'm seriously considering a Kirk frame in the future, everything you do with your bikes ticks the boxes for me but I'm a bit worried about moving away from my current frame geometry and fit.

How do you deal with this situation with new prospective customers?

My wife's first custom bike was a Ti Spectrum built by Tom. When she bought her Kirk from Dave we provided her contact points and the build sheet originally provided by Tom for her Spectrum. Her contact points remained the same, but Dave used different frame geometry. She is thrilled with the ride and handling of both bikes.

My advice when dealing with a custom bike is to be actively involved in the design process. Make sure you are getting what you want, but trust the person building the bike.

[Wakatel_Luum]

Originally Posted by David Kirk

You’re not the first person who has a bike that was built for them that they love and they don’t want to move too far from the design. If the bike in question was designed by someone like Tom and you love the design then I don’t have an issue with using the existing numbers. Maybe more importantly I will never build something that the owner doesn’t want. We need to be 100% on the same page before I will consider doing metal work and we will go back and forth with design tweaks as long as necessary until we are both happy. This works very well and has for the past 20 years I’ve been doing this.

I hope that puts you at ease.

dave

Thank you for the reply David, appreciated.

[David Kirk]

This frameset is a rarity for me lately....it's not getting shipped overseas but instead will live right here in the USA.

Onesto Fillet MRB.

dave

[roguedog]

Oh my gosh. Every time you post one of these, I'm just amazed at the purity and grace of the lines.

I think there's just that something something about just the exposed fillets, the curve of the terraplane stays, and the clean dropouts, etc. And of course that fork always gets me.

Just clean and pure like a pure note off a trued tuning fork

And this one looks about my size which is wonderful (and rare) to see since I see so many of the larger bikes go by.

[Morgul Bismark]

Originally Posted by David Kirk

Onesto Fillet MRB.

Really nice. That may be one of the only frames that would tempt me to consolidate down to one bike.

[Wakatel_Luum]

I'm just waiting for my life insurance payout to come through then I'm ordering!

[54ny77]

perfection. sheer perfection.

Originally Posted by David Kirk

This frameset is a rarity for me lately....it's not getting shipped overseas but instead will live right here in the USA.

Onesto Fillet MRB.

dave

[Gwerziou]

This is a gorgeous piece of work. I’m curious about stainless steel frames - in general but more specifically, I have mostly seen them fillet brazed and/or lugged, but only occasionally TIG welded. Is there an advantage to a certain method with this material? I see on the custom bikes channel a Stelbel Inox model that appears to be TIG welded (looks nice!), but I have read that TIG welding stainless is extremely difficult. Is that so?