What Happened to Tubular Popularity?

[Blown Reek]

I mean, I can understand the decline in popularity of Campy, but why tubulars? It seems that, at one time, tubulars were the only option, but as time went on, clinchers overtook tubulars in popularity, even though some people still ride tubulars. Given, they're cantankerous old men who pine for the glory days of downtube shifters, box rims, and Delta brakes, but they seem to be holdouts to the "tubulars are superior" mindset, and are a vocal bunch. If you can get the same performance out of a modern clincher as you can from a tubular, what's the point? Campagnolo?

Hmmm.

[El Chaba]

I use tubulars and Campagnolo....

[rwsaunders]

Originally Posted by El Chaba

I use tubulars and Campagnolo....

...and I vote. I see a bumper sticker in the making.

[smontanaro]

Originally Posted by El Chaba

I use tubulars and Campagnolo....

Ditto. When I got into vintage cycling several years ago, tubular wheels were actually less expensive. It doesn't hurt that I like the ride better, or that I used them back in college. Back then (early 70s), that's what decent bikes came with.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

[palincss]

Originally Posted by smontanaro

Ditto. When I got into vintage cycling several years ago, tubular wheels were actually less expensive. It doesn't hurt that I like the ride better, or that I used them back in college. Back then (early 70s), that's what decent bikes came with.

That's what some decent bikes came with. You could get Paramounts with either tubulars or clinchers, and most Jack Taylor models were made for clinchers.

[marciero]

Tubulars on a 700c bike that gets ridden 20% of the time and only in-season, but I've only had a single flat in going on three years, and that one happened after I got home and was able to seal it with sealant.
But that's not why I ride them. To me they just raise the ride and handling to that extra level of smoothness. With them the bike is like a Mercedes 450 SL-not a race bike, but more of a sports touring machine for civilized jaunts up the coast. With tubed clinchers-and these are Compass 28-the ride is more pedestrian. I may revisit and experiment with pressures and do more of a controlled experiment. I think maybe the tubulars mitigates the stiffer ride of the oversize tubing on this steel bike.

The majority of my riding is done on 650b 42 and 48 clinchers. The difference tubed and tubeless of these (at least the 48 so far) is roughly akin to what I am experiencing with clincher vs tubular on the the 700c bike. So maybe I should try road tubeless?

[climbgdh]

Originally Posted by el chaba

i use tubulars and campagnolo....

+1.....

[grognaak]

Custom steel bike (with Campy) and new wheels were just assembled. Record hubs, H+ Son TB14 rims, Veloflex Master 25 tires. Older fellas hanging around the shop laid on the compliments, but said I should consider sew-ups. Uh, well, hey, I just had new clincher wheels built ten minutes ago, thank you very much!

I'm thinking about throwing in some latex tubes. Can someone with experience on a similar setup as mine and experience on good tubular wheels qualify the difference for me, please?--as if more could be said in this thread. I'm not opposed to trying tubulars in the future--it's not going to happen anytime soon. If the difference between my setup and tubulars is too small for even a custom grump like me to notice, I'll just wait until the rims wear out. Thanks.

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by grognaak

Custom steel bike (with Campy) and new wheels were just assembled. Record hubs, H+ Son TB14 rims, Veloflex Master 25 tires. Older fellas hanging around the shop laid on the compliments, but said I should consider sew-ups. Uh, well, hey, I just had new clincher wheels built ten minutes ago, thank you very much!

I'm thinking about throwing in some latex tubes. Can someone with experience on a similar setup as mine and experience on good tubular wheels qualify the difference for me, please?--as if more could be said in this thread. I'm not opposed to trying tubulars in the future--it's not going to happen anytime soon. If the difference between my setup and tubulars is too small for even a custom grump like me to notice, I'll just wait until the rims wear out. Thanks.

Put latex tubes in there and report. 'Feel' is subjective, BUT there are other advantages to tubies besides 'feel'. They also corner very well since the sidewalls are supple, which, like a radial car tire, more tread stays on the road. PLUS 'some' wee weight savings PLUS..if glued on properly(no, not black or or weird science)..if ya flat, the tire won't come off rim, which is a real possibility with clinchers.

Throw in the lower pressure craze and no pinch flats..yes, tubies have real advantages.

[grognaak]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

Put latex tubes in there and report. 'Feel' is subjective, BUT there are other advantages to tubies besides 'feel'. They also corner very well since the sidewalls are supple, which, like a radial car tire, more tread stays on the road. PLUS 'some' wee weight savings PLUS..if glued on properly(no, not black or or weird science)..if ya flat, the tire won't come off rim, which is a real possibility with clinchers.

Throw in the lower pressure craze and no pinch flats..yes, tubies have real advantages.

Few thoughts from open-minded person (me):
*I seem to only get a flat tire on clinchers once every two or three years, basically when the butyl gets old it seems. I pay a lot of attention to junk in the road.
*Are Veloflex Master open clinchers not supple? They are something like 320 TPI if I remember correctly.
*About weight, it seems that the spin-up would be faster on tubular wheels, but that clincher wheels would have more momentum. I'm on 20 pound plus bikes and weight is more of a nuance curiosity than a real concern in my world.
*The part about a tire staying on the rim is of most interest to me. I'd like to think about how to quantify this risk. I'm not descending like Nibali, but safety is a priority.
*Low pressure craze? I guess I have some catching up to do on the literature. I've been running 25s at 95 to 105 psi for years, thinking it was more or less optimal.

Help me see the light.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by grognaak

Few thoughts from open-minded person (me):
*I seem to only get a flat tire on clinchers once every two or three years, basically when the butyl gets old it seems. I pay a lot of attention to junk in the road.

I get a few more flats, maybe one a year on average (sometimes I'll got none one year, and 2 the next). Sometimes I'll wear out a tire before it flats. Given the amount of time to fit a new clincher tire and to fix a flat out on the road, as compared to the time it takes to glue up a tubular, clincher tires save me time (over both tubulars and tubeless tires).

.

Originally Posted by grognaak

*About weight, it seems that the spin-up would be faster on tubular wheels, but that clincher wheels would have more momentum. I'm on 20 pound plus bikes and weight is more of a nuance curiosity than a real concern in my world.

For most practical cases, tubulars are heavier and slower than clinchers:
- Tubular rims are lighter than clincher rims. But clincher tires/tubes plus a spare tube is lighter than tubular tires plus a spare tire and the difference is greater the difference in rim weights. So if you have to carry your own spares, clinchers end up being lighter.
- As noted, because tubular rims are lighter, they have less rotational inertia, so they will "spin up" faster under the same power. However, tubular tires typically have more rolling resistance, reducing the power available for acceleration. Because of the reduction in accelerating power, the lighter tubular wheels may not accelerate any faster (and in some cases will be slower).
- Because of the greater rolling resistance tubular tires will also be slower at steady state speeds. Going up hill, the lighter weight of tubular rims help, but the hill has to be very steep before the extra rolling resistance is overcome. (Note: I do have a set of tubular wheels, but I only use them for hillclimb races, for hills with average grades greater than 10%.)

Originally Posted by grognaak

*The part about a tire staying on the rim is of most interest to me. I'd like to think about how to quantify this risk. I'm not descending like Nibali, but safety is a priority.

This part is generally true. But clinchers coming off a rim is still not common, and most riders can come to stop on a flat clincher without crashing. However, if you can't afford to stop to change a flat tire (as can happen in racing situation), tubulars may be preferable.

Originally Posted by grognaak

**Low pressure craze? I guess I have some catching up to do on the literature. I've been running 25s at 95 to 105 psi for years, thinking it was more or less optimal.

This also has some truth, as tubulars are less likely to suffer pinch flats. This is why tubulars are still the top choice for cyclocross. On rough roads, many people are opting for tubeless tires instead. For most road riders though, this is less of a concern.


Based on all this, tubulars are only an advantage if you don't have to carry your own spares, and you if may have to continue riding on a flat tires to avoid loosing time - in other words, they are only an advantage in track racing, cyclocross racing, or in professional road racing with support vehicles (the other type of professional racing with bicycles, triathlon, has largely abandoned tubular tires due to their disadvantages). For most other types of riding, including amateur road racing, clinchers are generally better.

[KarlC]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

.........

For most practical cases, tubulars are heavier and slower than clinchers:
- Tubular rims are lighter than clincher rims. But clincher tires/tubes plus a spare tube is lighter than tubular tires plus a spare tire and the difference is greater the difference in rim weights. So if you have to carry your own spares, clinchers end up being lighter.
- As noted, because tubular rims are lighter, they have less rotational inertia, so they will "spin up" faster under the same power. However, tubular tires typically have more rolling resistance, reducing the power available for acceleration. Because of the reduction in accelerating power, the lighter tubular wheels may not accelerate any faster (and in some cases will be slower).
- Because of the greater rolling resistance tubular tires will also be slower at steady state speeds. Going up hill, the lighter weight of tubular rims help, but the hill has to be very steep before the extra rolling resistance is overcome. (Note: I do have a set of tubular wheels, but I only use them for hillclimb races, for hills with average grades greater than 10%.)

Not to start a debate but to you have any known and generally agreed upon examples or facts to back these points up ?

As an example most guys I know that ride A LOT dont see the need to carry a spare tubular tire these days. Instead they carry something like orange seal ........

Originally Posted by RyanH post_id=1460485 time=1549329288 user_id=52680

This is my tool kit, it's barely noticeable in my back jersey pocket:



Cash, credit card, ID, multi tool, salt pills, valve tool and a few mils of orange seal. I also have a small pump.

Originally Posted by Calnago post_id=1455218 time=1547565894 user_id=18198

Orange Seal (Regular). I got fooled once by thinking the “Endurance” formula had to be best (right?) but all the Endurance part means is that it will stay liquid longer when it is in the tube. Since I only use it when/if I puncture the Regular version is what you want as it seals better, and quicker it seems. My entire repair “kit” fits into a Snack size ziplock bag and I can fix/adjust virtually anything that might happen on the road, not just a flat tubular...



Contents:
- old 50ml Tufo sealant bottle (filled with OrangeSeal) that is a much more convenient size to carry than the smallest size OrangeSeal bottle. I just swap caps since the orange seal cap, with the clear plastic tube for getting sealant through the valve without making a mess is really key to an easy mess free fix;
- 2mm and 2.5mm hex wrenches;
- old Mavic Hub tool which is very thin and strong and perfect in the event I need to get underneath a glued tubular to work it loose around the rim for removal;
- presta/schrader adaptor in the event I have to use a gas station for air;
- teensy Swiss Army Knife for whatever, but mostly so I can pick out any debris from the tire that caused the puncture in the first place. It even has tweezers;
- valve core removal tool... need to remove the valve core to inject sealant;
- Spare valve core (just realized it is missing from my package that I just emptied. I will add it after this post;
- Small Lezyne Mulittool (3,4,5,6mm hex keys, Torx25, small Phillips screwdriver;
- spoke wrench, fits my Nemesis wheels and a good portion of spokes that people you may encounter might have.

And what’s all that weigh...

I just put the pen there for scale, it’s really small and fits easily and comfortably in my jersey pocket. For comparison, my iPhone 10 which I’m writing on right now weighs 210g in its silicone case and fits in my other jersey pocket.

Originally Posted by KarlC post_id=1455227 time=1547567576 user_id=62912

Very nice Cal !

Here is my everyday repair kit, sealant with air so I dont carry a pump, so far its only not worked 1 time, in the past 4 years, when I had a large cut thru the tire from a road full of glass I could not avoid on a 50mph down hill run. For all day rides I carry a bit more tools.

[grognaak]

I also need to know if the following video represents the normal for changing / mounting a tubular tire if I am going to be converted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGw3DlZMRGI

The guy doing the demo makes it seem like a long, careful process, or is that just my uninitiated opinion? So, basically, I would still need to have a backup set of wheels if I went this route, right? What happens if I flat a tubular on a multi-day adventure? Can I be confident that sealant is going to handle that or that a spare tire is going to stay on the wheel for a whole day of riding? I don't mind taking care of my bikes and tinkering, but, even if you love tubulars, isn't it kind of cool that clincher tube/tire changes are once and done?

Again, help me see the light. If I'm possibly getting 80-90% of the benefits of tubulars from H+ Son TB14s, Veloflex Master 25s, and Vittoria latex tubes, then it's really hard to see why I wouldn't want to retain most of what is best in both worlds.

Update: Missed the last post before posting mine. It sounds like the Zipp video I link is not really representative. Thanks.

[denapista]

Say it's Saturday and I slash a Veloflex Tubular on the road. I pop on my spare and either finish my ride or ride home. I base continuing my ride depending on the terrain. My personal preference. I've descended gnarly roads on a spare, I just didn't lean like I was in MotoGP, due to it being a spare slapped on. I've been "Out There" and finished my ride on a spare and no kittens died that day... You can ride on a spare tire, just be mindful of extreme leaning for the first few miles. After like 4-5mi on a spare, that tire will mend with the glue on the rim and it may be a bitch to get the spare off! Happened to me twice. By being a bitch, I simply mean you need some effort to remove.

When I get home, I should already have stretched out tires because as a tubular rider, you're always buying tire from deals that surface. I have like 12 tires right now.... I pull off the spare, apply 1 coat of glue on the new tire and wait 20 minutes and apply another coat and mount tire. Do my rolling and centering technique, inflate to 120psi and let that tire sit overnight until the next day. That tire sat overnight and will be ready to shred the next morning.

One step I missed would be to inspect the level of glue left on the rim after removing the spare. In most cases there's enough glue on the rim for the new tire to active against. If you feel there isn't (this can only come with experience to recognize how much is on your rim). then apply (1) thin coat before the (2) thin coats on the tire.

I'm sure all of the text above makes it sound super complex, but it's totally not. It literally takes me 30min to glue/center a new tire after a flat.

The key to tubulars, is to buy good ones. I love Veloflex tires. If your bike can fit Vlaanderen's, then it would be the only tire I would recommend. It rolls super fast and the durability is beyond anything I've ever ridden. Ridden through glass, dirt, staples, etc.. The tire kicks ass!

[KarlC]

This .........

Originally Posted by denapista

.......

I should already have stretched out tires because as a tubular rider, you're always buying tire from deals that surface. I have like 12 tires right now.... I pull off the spare, apply 1 coat of glue on the new tire and wait 20 minutes and apply another coat and mount tire. Do my rolling and centering technique, inflate to 120psi and let that tire sit overnight until the next day. That tire sat overnight and will be ready to shred the next morning.

.................

It literally takes me 30min to glue/center a new tire after a flat.

The key to tubulars, is to buy good ones. I love Veloflex tires. If your bike can fit Vlaanderen's, then it would be the only tire I would recommend. It rolls super fast and the durability is beyond anything I've ever ridden. Ridden through glass, dirt, staples, etc.. The tire kicks ass!