What-a-ya think about the brochure??? (caution, Serotta content)

[bshell]

I'm not going to reread the entire thing but my take away from recent posts has been that the serotta based portion of the thread has been pretty reality based.

I didn't see anyone say Ben was a bad guy but the starts and stops he's had over the years, the marginal website, the price point comparisons to all of the fine builders available -it's pretty dead on. And I still wish him the best if making frames is what he wants to do.

It's okay to like/love the guy and his bikes and any friendships/one off interactions but skip the hyperbole if you want a real discussion.

It's been a mighty long time so I can't remember exactly how or when ben started hosting the forum(w/o any company participation iirc) but it was around for years before he did so he was never 'in' the forum business.

[laupsi]

Don’t know for certain, but thinking most who disparage Serotta have never ridden anything from the company, now or previous. I’ve been a avid cyclist since becoming a teenager. Now 56 years old and I have owned and ridden just about everything in terms of frame material, group set, wheels, geo and style; nothing that I have ridden from Ben has not been sublime coming out of his factory, stock or custom and yes I own both.

Let them complain; I am very happy w/the money Ive spent over the years on my BS bikes and frames. And that’s all that really matters!

[Buzz]

Originally Posted by BumbleBeeDave

Ben could be standing on the corner handing out $100 bills and some here would be complaining because they are wrinkled.

BBD

Quite true. Also quite true is that Serotta built beautifully engineered bikes, taking no short cuts with their fabrication or materials. We still have two Serottas in our garage and nearly twenty years later they ride as nicely as day one and their paint and finish is still fresh. We took a tour of the factory circa 2005-2007? And were impressed at the facilities and all the people working there. At that time there were transitioning into carbon fiber and showed us all the self designed and built jigs and manufacturing processes. It was pretty cool stuff, remarkable (and quite expensive looking) for a relatively small bicycle manufacturer. You got the sense that Ben was always pushing the envelope of manufacturing and engineering but without lessening quality standards. I had two long conversations with Ben on two different occasions both centered around difficult aspects of hiring the right employees, paying decent wages, healthcare benefits amongst other costs of simply running a business. I think the model of what he was trying to do was unfortunately done in by too many complicating factors. Happens, but doesn’t take away that the bikes he produced were as nicely designed and manufactured as any builder in the world could claim.

[BumbleBeeDave]

I think my hyperbole was dead on target. It's never anything disparaging said directly about him. It's more the tone, and the comments like snarky remarking on the zip-tie used to secure a brake line. Just cheap shots by keyboard warriors. And the same tone always comes up in any thread about anything Ben. He could be giving away his new bikes and the snark patrol here would still be taking shots at him.

Ben did indeed pay for the forum to the tune of several thousand dollars per years for at least 4 years, and I'm pretty sure longer. I became a mod in 2008 and he was paying for it then, and continued to pay for it until he graciously offered to let Keith A, myself and the other mods to take it private as the Paceline, which we did on February 6, 2012–so the tenth anniversary is coming up.

He could have just shut the whole thing down and deleted everything from his server. But he didn't, and he gave us time to find a new provider and arrange server transfer, and that's why you can still enjoy it. Plus never in those four years I had anything to do with him did he ever ask us to do anything to delete or edit any of the crap that people were posting about him then.

So no, he was never "'in' the forum business." . . . and he made some bad decisions and had some business problems during his 40 years of successfully running a cycling company. News flash–he's not perfect. But he did do it for 4*0*Y*E*A*R*S.

So far I haven't run into anybody on the forum who can prove they've done for longer–or even half as long.

BBD

Originally Posted by bshell

I'm not going to reread the entire thing but my take away from recent posts has been that the serotta based portion of the thread has been pretty reality based.

I didn't see anyone say Ben was a bad guy but the starts and stops he's had over the years, the marginal website, the price point comparisons to all of the fine builders available -it's pretty dead on. And I still wish him the best if making frames is what he wants to do.

It's okay to like/love the guy and his bikes and any friendships/one off interactions but skip the hyperbole if you want a real discussion.

It's been a mighty long time so I can't remember exactly how or when ben started hosting the forum(w/o any company participation iirc) but it was around for years before he did so he was never 'in' the forum business.

[KonaSS]

Respectfully disagree about the tone. Many other bikes/product launches who are not Serotta get it all the time. Somehow it is a fun sport to completely crap on Sram, but you can't suggest that the latest Serotta offering misses the mark?

I don't think anyone has said anything but good things personally about Mr. Serotta. But objectively, from my armchair, he has made a few missteps since the haydays of Serotta with relaunches and side projects. I think it is totally fair to question this one as well, as this forum does with every other new bike/component launch.

Originally Posted by BumbleBeeDave

I think my hyperbole was dead on target. It's never anything disparaging said directly about him. It's more the tone, and the comments like snarky remarking on the zip-tie used to secure a brake line. Just cheap shots by keyboard warriors. And the same tone always comes up in any thread about anything Ben. He could be giving away his new bikes and the snark patrol here would still be taking shots at him.

Ben did indeed pay for the forum to the tune of several thousand dollars per years for at least 4 years, and I'm pretty sure longer. I became a mod in 2008 and he was paying for it then, and continued to pay for it until he graciously offered to let Keith A, myself and the other mods to take it private as the Paceline, which we did on February 6, 2012–so the tenth anniversary is coming up.

He could have just shut the whole thing down and deleted everything from his server. But he didn't, and he gave us time to find a new provider and arrange server transfer, and that's why you can still enjoy it. Plus never in those four years I had anything to do with him did he ever ask us to do anything to delete or edit any of the crap that people were posting about him then.

So no, he was never "'in' the forum business." . . . and he made some bad decisions and had some business problems during his 40 years of successfully running a cycling company. News flash–he's not perfect. But he did do it for 4*0*Y*E*A*R*S.

So far I haven't run into anybody on the forum who can prove they've done for longer–or even half as long.

BBD

[titans]

So far I haven't run into anybody on the forum who can prove they've done for longer–or even half as long.

BBD[/QUOTE]

I think Richard Sachs has been building for almost 50 years. Not in the quantities Ben did but Richie is a one man shop. Well two man if you count J Bell. I still remember seeing his framesets at Toga when it was in alphabet city in NY. This was in the mid 70s.

[charliedid]

Originally Posted by bshell

I'm not going to reread the entire thing but my take away from recent posts has been that the serotta based portion of the thread has been pretty reality based.

I didn't see anyone say Ben was a bad guy but the starts and stops he's had over the years, the marginal website, the price point comparisons to all of the fine builders available -it's pretty dead on. And I still wish him the best if making frames is what he wants to do.

It's okay to like/love the guy and his bikes and any friendships/one off interactions but skip the hyperbole if you want a real discussion.

It's been a mighty long time so I can't remember exactly how or when ben started hosting the forum(w/o any company participation iirc) but it was around for years before he did so he was never 'in' the forum business.

I tend to agree.

[Blown Reek]

Originally Posted by BumbleBeeDave

It's more the tone, and the comments like snarky remarking on the zip-tie used to secure a brake line. Just cheap shots by keyboard warriors.

Zip ties are such an early-mountain bike hydro brake solution, and the fact that they're being used on such a "high end" product is insulting. Do you think that they can't do better than that? And then they have the audacity to charge such exorbitant prices? Maybe if you're a Serotta fanboy/Ben Serotta apologist there's nothing wrong with it, but to anyone else, it's really weak. Heck, you can get a Walty for much less money and still have a very Serotta-like externally routed brake housing. But then again, Ben won't personally review your documents or (most importantly) contact you personally!

Keep in mind that there's no snark about my comment, it's a direct statement on the fact that Serotta is charging so much for a custom frame that offers absolutely nothing "special" about it. You might pine for the glory days when Serotta was the top of the (clichéd dentist) food chain, but speaking of pining, in 1966 Al Bundy scored four touchdowns in a single game while playing for the Polk High School Panthers in the 1966 city championship game versus Andrew Johnson High School. You remember the days when Ben was on this forum, and Al remembers those touchdowns.

Sorry if people dissing Ben Serotta offends you so personally, but with all the good framebuilders out there, it seems that the only thing unique that a Serotta offers is the name on the downtube and lazy cable routing.

[bshell]

BBD

My apologies for being unclear. I have no knowledge about how forums are hosted etc. or what costs are associated and I was not trying to ignore the expense to Ben. The company participation comment was related to not joining any threads/conversations but that was so long ago I can't swear to it.

The shop I worked for was a dealer/had the Serotta size cycle etc. and I was lucky enough to pick up a beautiful 57x57 Legend Ti w/ 3D dropouts from the forum in @2000 or 2002.

Loved that bike. Their art was ahead of the curve to me.

[fiamme red]

Originally Posted by BumbleBeeDave

Ben did indeed pay for the forum to the tune of several thousand dollars per years for at least 4 years, and I'm pretty sure longer. I became a mod in 2008 and he was paying for it then, and continued to pay for it until he graciously offered to let Keith A, myself and the other mods to take it private as the Paceline, which we did on February 6, 2012–so the tenth anniversary is coming up.

You make it sound like pure altruism, but I'd guess that at least a few frames and bikes were ordered each year from Serotta thanks to the forum. Of course, I do appreciate very much that Ben sponsored this forum for such a long time.

[Adam]

Hi All,

I am a current Serotta dealer and now have a new Duetti Ti on the floor for demo, display and have sold a few to happy clients. The new bikes have some very sophisticated manipulation that you don’t see on other bikes to this extent. Triple butting, swaged, square and tapered, etc. We get the framesets from Serotta and build them to customer spec. Leadtime is the fastest among my other ti vendors, communication clear, and it is a nice thing to be communicating with Ben directly in the design process. All frames are custom from tubing selection to geo to finish. Pricing is similar to Moots RSL in stock geo, the same or less when going custom with Moots (as a point of comparison only here). The new bikes are Legend Ti for 2022 and beyond for sure. We won’t be lighting the world on fire with these, but they make a great addition to our offerings and choice is good.

I chose to have external cable routing on our bike because I like it and enjoy to the convenience of it. Wouldn’t be surprised if this example wears a few different groupsets in its service. Currently a record 12 Hydro. Can’t wait to put it though it’s paces in the Spring.

You can absolutely get internal brake cable routing if you wish, and not at an up charge. The customer bikes delivered had internal routing. Paint does add cost, but it adds cost with all other vendors as well.

I have been selling Serotta bikes in one way or another for over 20 years and have been there through the ups and downs. In all that time, the product never suffered and has been always best in class (or on par). These new frames aren’t as elegant as what he was doing in the early 2000’s to my eye but are brutally elegant and well thought out.

Am glad to have this working relationship with Ben and glad to offer VERY unique bikes to our clientele.

[benb]

Some of the pictured bikes tick off every box for me perfectly..

But even as a former Serotta owner the price is just way too out there and the whole process of actually getting one wouldn't work for me.

Personally I'm not sure all the extra tube manipulation matters for me.. and for this style of bike I can go get a Seven built locally and have a much easier time going through the process and save giant piles of money.

I'm a big "meh" on the internal cables debate. To me internal cables are a distinct negative... maybe they work for you if you pay someone else to do your maintenance and really think the aero or cosmetic benefits are worth it. For me on a custom bike I would specifically request everything to be the easiest maintenance possible, cause there's zero reason for me to believe internal cables will make me faster and mountains of evidence that internal cables are a PITA for me. (Both my current road bikes have internal cables.)

Mostly a Ti bike like this is a throwback/nostalgia machine for me that should be a low maintenance very easy to live with bike that just has a fantastic ownership experience.

The starts/stops and all the weirdness about the brand relaunching make me kind of gun shy given the high costs.

Weird thing too.. when I bought my Serotta 14 years ago it was borderline stupid financially for me personally. Other than the argument that all these bikes are stupid buys no matter what your personal finances are (depreciation, chance of the bike being wrong, poor performance/price ratios, etc.. ) , these days none of these would be hard financially and yet the price looks more silly.

[Adam]

Gotcha Benb Purchasing a Serotta is as easy as Seven when one works thru us. We also do a lot of business with them. Not your flavor and that is fine!

[mstateglfr]

Originally Posted by Doug Fattic

I would propose that the problem isn't that Serotta's are over priced but custom frames in general are underpriced. If a plumber or electrician made them and charged their normal rates, Ben's pricing would seem cheap.

Curious how many hours are typically spent on a custom steel frame by an established builder. Lets go with a lugged frame since that will add time for manipulation and thinning(but not overly ornate finshing). So a lugged steel rim brake road frame.

Figure $375 for tubes, lugs, and silver- I havent looked recently, but just added a good bit to what I have seen quality tube sets cost in the past.

I see a sweetspot of frame prices between $2500 and $5000, typically.
So subtracting tubing and silver, thats 28 hours of billable work at $75/hour on the low end and 61 hours of billable work at $75/hour on the high end.
Do custom geometry lugged rim brake road frames designed and built by established builders take 61 hours?

[nmrt]

Hi Adam,
Can we see more pictures of the frame? Would love to see more of the tube manipulations! That squarish TT looks cool.
BTW, is it supposed to be a secret as to who is building these frames? And whether the tubing is US sourced or not?
Thank you!

Originally Posted by Adam

Hi All,

I am a current Serotta dealer and now have a new Duetti Ti on the floor for demo, display and have sold a few to happy clients. The new bikes have some very sophisticated manipulation that you don’t see on other bikes to this extent. Triple butting, swaged, square and tapered, etc. We get the framesets from Serotta and build them to customer spec. Leadtime is the fastest among my other ti vendors, communication clear, and it is a nice thing to be communicating with Ben directly in the design process. All frames are custom from tubing selection to geo to finish. Pricing is similar to Moots RSL in stock geo, the same or less when going custom with Moots (as a point of comparison only here). The new bikes are Legend Ti for 2022 and beyond for sure. We won’t be lighting the world on fire with these, but they make a great addition to our offerings and choice is good.

I chose to have external cable routing on our bike because I like it and enjoy to the convenience of it. Wouldn’t be surprised if this example wears a few different groupsets in its service. Currently a record 12 Hydro. Can’t wait to put it though it’s paces in the Spring.

You can absolutely get internal brake cable routing if you wish, and not at an up charge. The customer bikes delivered had internal routing. Paint does add cost, but it adds cost with all other vendors as well.

I have been selling Serotta bikes in one way or another for over 20 years and have been there through the ups and downs. In all that time, the product never suffered and has been always best in class (or on par). These new frames aren’t as elegant as what he was doing in the early 2000’s to my eye but are brutally elegant and well thought out.

Am glad to have this working relationship with Ben and glad to offer VERY unique bikes to our clientele.