OT: The Diesel might not be dead after all...

[unterhausen]

the auto companies have increased the power of IC motors to an amazing extent while also improving fuel economy. My '84 honda civic had 75 horsepower and got a little over 30mpg downhill on a freeway. Now it has 2x the horsepower with better gas mileage. If we were serious about fuel usage/pollution, they could dial the power back and accomplish that. But they don't have to, and we aren't serious.

[C40_guy]

Originally Posted by ultraman6970

What is displaced pollution????

Electric cars dont produce air contaminants and they dont use regular motor oil, just in those two you have a big difference with any vehicle in maintenance and contamination (eg: i have an oil leak in my car, im dropping oil all over town) . THe problem are the batteries, nobody talks about that.

When you charge an electric vehicle at home or at a charging station at work or Whole Foods, that electricity has to be generated somewhere. (At least at Whole Foods, the electricity is free range, grass fed electricity.) Locally, most of our electricity is generated by a natural gas plant. While that plan runs pretty cleanly, it still produces air pollution. In other areas, sources may be coal fired, or nuclear, or wind turbines.

Personally, my roof generates 30-40% more electricity on an annual basis than we use. if I charged an electric vehicle at my house (during sunny daytimes), I really would be using clean electricity. On the other hand, if I charged it at night, I'd be pulling the power off the grid...

[cinema]

Originally Posted by C40_guy

When you charge an electric vehicle at home or at a charging station at work or Whole Foods, that electricity has to be generated somewhere. Locally, most of our electricity is generated by a natural gas plant. While that plan runs pretty cleanly, it still produces air pollution.

exactly. not to mention that the amount of destruction and risk involved in obtaining natural gas.

I've also heard that after just a year, a diesel powered engine begins to produce more carcinogens and particulates that flow directly into the cabin due to increasing blow by.

[staggerwing]

Originally Posted by YoKev

Mazda CX-5 diesel appears good to go (soon) with California approval granted on April 19th:

https://www.greencarreports.com/news...or-cx-5-diesel

And, just to murky the waters, Mazda is about to go all in on compression ignition gasoline engines. Going to be interesting to see where that goes.

[C40_guy]

If only we had a form of locomotion that, once the device is manufactured, there is no further pollution when used.

I would suggest the bicycle, but in my experience, the engine (at least for my bikes) creates a lot of methane!

[paredown]

Originally Posted by C40_guy

When you charge an electric vehicle at home or at a charging station at work or Whole Foods, that electricity has to be generated somewhere. (At least at Whole Foods, the electricity is free range, grass fed electricity.) Locally, most of our electricity is generated by a natural gas plant. While that plan runs pretty cleanly, it still produces air pollution. In other areas, sources may be coal fired, or nuclear, or wind turbines.

Personally, my roof generates 30-40% more electricity on an annual basis than we use. if I charged an electric vehicle at my house (during sunny daytimes), I really would be using clean electricity. On the other hand, if I charged it at night, I'd be pulling the power off the grid...

True dat--I hate when the all-electric crowd assumes that their cars are powered by fairy dust. Around here it is likely to be oil-fired, and not clean.

And if you want to look at total carbon footprint, hi-tech batteries are not very clean, nor are plastic compounds used for a lot of body panels on electrics...

All that said, the best assessment of a Tesla, still has the all-electric coming out ahead over vehicle life (if you believe their claims that they will recycle 70% of the EOL battery):

The Union of Concerned Scientists did the best and most rigorous assessment of the carbon footprint of Tesla's and other electric vehicles vs internal combustion vehicles including hybrids. They found that the manufacturing of a full-sized Tesla Model S rear-wheel drive car with an 85 KWH battery was equivalent to a full-sized internal combustion car except for the battery, which added 15% or one metric ton of CO2 emissions to the total manufacturing.

However, they found that this was trivial compared to the emissions avoided due to not burning fossil fuels to move the car. Before anyone says "But electricity is generated from coal!", they took that into account too, and it's included in the 53% overall reduction.

And it's probably worth asking what happens to the battery at end of lifecycle. Answer: Tesla recycles it, recovering 70% of the carbon.

So assuming that the numbers are accurate, electrics still make sense.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2.../#28229bc66096

[Mikej]

I believe In electric, but I would have thought the tech development would have been the hard part, not the manufacturing, which seems to be Teslas problem -getting the economical version to the public. Cool cars though.

[Ralph]

Gasoline engines are also improving at an amazing rate. Taking the best from a diesel.....turbo charging, direct injection, strong internals to withstand the extra pressure, etc. Next compression ignition from Mazda this year, and from Nissan variable rate turbo chargers NOW.
Even though diesel fuel produces more BTU's of energy per volume, I don't see any point in passenger car diesels any more. Especially with EPA rules and public opinion against them.

My brother has a 3 cylinder turbo charged Ford Focus that makes adequate HP and TQ, gets about 50 MPG on gasoline, and can be sold in a bargain priced plain stripped down vehicle for very little money....less than $20,000. Pretty incredible. And you don't have to deal with "stinky" fuel.

[cinema]

The Ford Focus does not get 50mpg.

[Ralph]

I'll agree. Probably not in EPA tests. But my brother has logged 50 MPG (tested at fill ups) on the hwy in the 3 cylinder turbo Focus. Kinda like diesel drivers say they get 45-50 MPG.

[AngryScientist]

i just looked for kicks.

sorry Ralph - i know you're a ford fan, but that focus is a pretty poor showing.

EPA estimated up to 40 mpg, 3cyl engine, 123hp (@6k rpm), and basically $20k. that's a pretty weak combination IMO.

the car is 3k#. my goodness that would be a handful with 4 adults going uphill on the freeway with the AC on...

[Ralph]

I'm just making the point that Ford, GM, BMW, MB, Hyundai, and others have taken the best part of diesels and merged that with modern gasoline engines to produce smaller fuel efficient engines that make good power with pretty good clean fuel economy. And when you clean the diesel engines up, plus their added cost, not much advantage to a diesel anymore in a passenger car.

Plus the Turbo charged gas engines mostly have steel billet crankshafts and forged pistons and rods....the parts that gave Passenger car diesels their reputation for long life. Well passenger car gas engines have those parts now.

Heavy duty diesel engines in trucks, fork lifts, locomotives, and stationary applications (like pumps) a whole nother category. Their engines are built entirely different from a passenger car diesel. They can do an amazing amount of work from their BTU's of fuel.

[Ralph]

Originally Posted by AngryScientist

i just looked for kicks.

sorry Ralph - i know you're a ford fan, but that focus is a pretty poor showing.

EPA estimated up to 40 mpg, 3cyl engine, 123hp (@6k rpm), and basically $20k. that's a pretty weak combination IMO.

the car is 3k#. my goodness that would be a handful with 4 adults going uphill on the freeway with the AC on...

It's not that bad. Can be bought stripped for about $17,000. Good commuter car. And better seats than a Fit.

[AngryScientist]

oh, i agree with you Ralph, to a point. direct injected turbo engines can be made quite reliably, for sure - but there is no arguing that they are much more complex machines than NA engines. the addition of a high pressure fuel system, variable valve timing and high pressure air system, including boost control is not insignificant. there is a lot more to go wrong, and a lot less for the home mechanic to diagnose and fix in the driveway.

for me these days, driving very few miles per year, i want a car that makes decent power and is as mechanically simple as possible, within reason. fuel economy is not a concern. for people who commute far and need the best possible fuel economy, the current crop of gassers is pretty darn good!

[Ralph]

Originally Posted by AngryScientist

oh, i agree with you Ralph, to a point. direct injected turbo engines can be made quite reliably, for sure - but there is no arguing that they are much more complex machines than NA engines. the addition of a high pressure fuel system, variable valve timing and high pressure air system, including boost control is not insignificant. there is a lot more to go wrong, and a lot less for the home mechanic to diagnose and fix in the driveway.

for me these days, driving very few miles per year, i want a car that makes decent power and is as mechanically simple as possible, within reason. fuel economy is not a concern. for people who commute far and need the best possible fuel economy, the current crop of gassers is pretty darn good!

Most new diesel passenger car engines have those same complexities. Lots of parts to go wrong.

BTW....haven't seen the specs on the latest Mazda diesel. But a couple years ago....they were trying to bring to market a lower compression ratio diesel. Lean burn. Light weight all aluminum heads and block. That would run cleaner. Use spark plugs for starting, then switch over to compression. Showed lots of promise for North American use. Other companies working on compression gas engines, using spark plugs for starting. Some race cars now have the valves operated electronically....no need for cams, etc (haven't seen one up close yet). Now with variable ratio turbo chargers, fuel burning technologies merging.....the future of ICE seems strong for a while yet. Even with development of interim systems of electricity and various ways to make hybrids.....until they get hydrogen fuel figured out with it's infrastructure.