Vamoots!!!

[strayduck]

Sorry that I had to yell that title but these guys and gals over at Moots make amazing bikes. Through a comedy (tragedy?) of errors with a frame builder this year, an upgrade to my old frame went sideways and I was left with a build kit but no frame.

I detail the story in a blog post over here but the tldr; is that I decided to take the leap and order a brand new frame to replace the old one. This forum post is more to marvel at a decade's worth of marginal gains. With very similar materials, geometry, and build kit I was blown away at the difference in ride quality.

Here was the bike that went under the knife to make room for wider tires. It was a 2006 Merlin 6/4 Works CR:



So I loved the Merlin and rode and raced it for years and tens of thousands of miles. I built it to be light but durable. It had a baseball bat of a downtube in 6/4 titanium and a small rear triangle for stiffness. Despite being designed specifically as a race bike it was pretty compliant and I rode a double-century on it with no lingering discomfort in the days following. I also raced it up Mt. Washington with no complaints about weight.

As I logged the miles the industry changed little by little. Head tubes got bigger. Wheels and handlebars got stiffer. Tires got wider. Brakes got MUCH better. So even though I thought I knew what I was getting myself into, I was still surprised when I finally got out on my new Moots.



Aside from fit, which is still perfect, every single aspect is different.

Where the Merlin aimed for efficiency through narrow, rock-hard tires and a more compliant frame, the Moots frame doesn't budge under sprint efforts. There is no "whoosh whoosh" from the deep dish wheels flexing. It absorbs road chatter via wider, lower pressure tires and larger bumps via the top part of the frame.

The teardrop-shaped wheels really do handle better in crosswinds and pick up speed very quickly.

And I could go on for days about the brakes. I got used to disc brakes on my gravel bike commuter which I ride year-round and in all weather. Even in poor conditions, you find yourself waiting longer and braking harder. There is no concern about high-temperature blowouts that you could get on rim brakes.

Many PRs have been set.

I would say that the older generation of road bike have a 'youthful' and slightly wild ride whereas the new generation have an almost military-like seriousness and sobriety to them. It's less Naruto charging into battle but more Kakashi focusing and achieving with less effort.

Have any of you also had a similar experience when upgrading to the new generation of bike?

I'll leave you with a few other photos because bike porn

[shrimp123]

nice ride. the adventure begins, rather, continues

[jkbrwn]

I did the opposite and ‘downgraded’ from a hydro Di2 44mm head tube disc road bike with wide tyres to a 1 1/8th rim brake mechanical shifting bike with less wide tyres and I have zero regrets. Much funner to ride in my eyes. And I feel less like I’m riding a robot and more like I’m riding a bicycle.

Ps sweet bike!

[paulh]

Wow! That is really nice. I don't have a similar story.

I have a painted Moots that really needs to be refinished. Probably a plain brushed Ti finish.

"The base finish uses two different levels of sandblasting"

Is this what their website calls "standard brushed finish?" And I'm assuming the logos are anodized.

Well done and congrats.

[jpritchet74]

That's just do damn perdy.

[strayduck]

Originally Posted by shrimp123

nice ride. the adventure begins, rather, continues

Always continue!

Originally Posted by jkbrwn

I did the opposite and ‘downgraded’ from a hydro Di2 44mm head tube disc road bike with wide tyres to a 1 1/8th rim brake mechanical shifting bike with less wide tyres and I have zero regrets. Much funner to ride in my eyes. And I feel less like I’m riding a robot and more like I’m riding a bicycle.

I can appreciate that viewpoint. The robot makes me feel so capable, though! lol. If I were an auto collector I'd surely have some classics in the stable as well. An old MG isn't as fast as a modern sports car but there is a charm and a feel to the ride that is fun.

Originally Posted by paulh

Is this what their website calls "standard brushed finish?" And I'm assuming the logos are anodized.

I looked up the official name and the logo treatment I have is "etched" https://moots.com/finishes/#finish-2

Originally Posted by pritchet74

That's just do damn perdy.

Thanks! I have to admit that I do keep it in my office so that I can admire it when not riding...

[barnabyjones]

I'd argue that a 2020 Moots with disc brakes would provide the perceived power transfer, performance and comfort of a 2005 C50 Colnago or Look 585 with Dura Ace or Record skeleton brakes.

That said, the Moots will look modern well past 2035. Lovely bike that.

edit: since it's an RSL, a C59 would be comparable or a Cervelo RCA. Planted but not too stiff carbon.

[Matthew]

Beautiful bike!! I've got two Moots and they are lifetime keepers. Is it me or did the Moots finish change slightly? Just seems a different shade of finish now. Not bad, just different. Different bead blast technique maybe? Still great looking regardless.

[jkbrwn]

Originally Posted by strayduck

@jkbrown: I can appreciate that viewpoint. The robot makes me feel so capable, though! lol. If I were an auto collector I'd surely have some classics in the stable as well. An old MG isn't as fast as a modern sports car but there is a charm and a feel to the ride that is fun.
..

Yeah, totally. Don’t get me wrong, I felt very, very confident descending on that bike. 30c tyres, discs etc. Especially in the wet. It felt totally rock solid. But I moved to a warmer climate where it rarely rains and decided to go back to rim brakes. Mainly because of home maintenance and the fact that I like to tinker. I occasionally hit a corner a little too fast where I wish I’d had discs but it’s rare. I definitely prefer the aesthetics of rim brakes, too.

I’m sure I’ll have a disc super bike in the future though...

[barnabyjones]

Originally Posted by Matthew

Beautiful bike!! I've got two Moots and they are lifetime keepers. Is it me or did the Moots finish change slightly? Just seems a different shade of finish now. Not bad, just different. Different bead blast technique maybe? Still great looking regardless.

I thought the same. That finish looks closer to Lynskey Matte Satin than the typical Moots bead blasted finish.

https://lynskeyperformance.com/titanium-frame-finishes/

[avalonracing]

Interesting story on that Merlin. I saw it when you had it listed on eBay. I used to have a Merlin Works 3/2.5 and I sold it to my friend but I think it is one of the best riding bikes ever so I'm often on the lookout for another. I thought about yours for a minute but I was concerned that modification to the chainstays would have changed the ride quality even more than the change from 3/2.5 to 6/4 would have.

[chismog]

Do ya still have the Merlin? Looks like the deep rim is the problem, yes?

[strayduck]

Lots to respond to here!

Originally Posted by Matthew

Beautiful bike!! I've got two Moots and they are lifetime keepers. Is it me or did the Moots finish change slightly? Just seems a different shade of finish now. Not bad, just different. Different bead blast technique maybe? Still great looking regardless.

I don't have any old models to compare to but by the photo, I'd agree that the new finish is similar to the Lynskey Matte Satin. It's 3/2.5 Ti and it's fairly smooth to the touch but looks "dull" and doesn't reflect much except for light intensity. The logos, OTOH, feel like high-grit sandpaper.

Originally Posted by barnabyjones

I'd argue that a 2020 Moots with disc brakes would provide the perceived power transfer, performance, and comfort of a 2005 C50 Colnago or Look 585 with Dura-Ace or Record skeleton brakes.

edit: since it's an RSL, a C59 would be comparable or a Cervelo RCA. Planted but not too stiff carbon.

You're definitely talking a different classic language than I speak. I haven't had the opportunity to ride Colnago and Look but I know they are legendary. I haven't seen the Vamoots compared to many classic bikes but there is probably a marketing reason for that. I'd agree with 'planted but not too stiff' though I wonder about how the bikes you mention return to the neutral position after being flexed. The old Merlin had a *snap* and while the Moots still gives back, it's much more measured--it wants to keep me connected to the rails.

Originally Posted by avalonracing

Interesting story on that Merlin. I saw it when you had it listed on eBay. I used to have a Merlin Works 3/2.5 and I sold it to my friend but I think it is one of the best riding bikes ever so I'm often on the lookout for another. I thought about yours for a minute but I was concerned that modification to the chainstays would have changed the ride quality even more than the change from 3/2.5 to 6/4 would have.

Small world! I didn't spend much time with it between potato-chipping and selling but given that process replaces a thin round metal wall with a thick plate I'm presuming that this section of tubing will be more rigid than it was originally. It would probably twist slightly less at the bottom bracket which wouldn't necessarily be bad, though it could steal a bit of the spring which these frames are known for.

Originally Posted by chismog

Do ya still have the Merlin? Looks like the deep rim is the problem, yes?

I ended up selling the Merlin and the Mavic wheels to help fund the new frame but yes, the *new generation* deep rim was the problem. Older wheels like a Mavic Cosmic had a narrow 19mm external measurement. These fit within the chainstays easily. The newer generation of wheels are 25mm wide which was too much. My frame builder should have received the parts, put them together, and said "this won't work because we'd need to build too long of a chip which won't be strong enough". Had I kept the bike post-potato-chip I might have explored some exalith ksyriums with 25mm or 28mm tires.

Separately, I fielded a question about the dropout clearance as it relates to the threaded DT Swiss skewers so I thought I'd just post that here because it's interesting and related:

The drive side has a replaceable derailleur hanger which tucks neatly into the dropout. This photo shows off the texture of the 3D printed titanium which is employed for the entire dropout module:



On the non-drive side you can see the dropout is kind of Breezer-esque, but lacks the dramatic shelf. There is plenty of clearance for the skewer:

[JeffWarner]

Originally Posted by Matthew

Beautiful bike!! I've got two Moots and they are lifetime keepers. Is it me or did the Moots finish change slightly? Just seems a different shade of finish now. Not bad, just different. Different bead blast technique maybe? Still great looking regardless.

I think its just the lighting in the picture. I've got two Vamoots ... a 2004 and a 2019 ... and the bead blasting finish looks to be the same between the two.

[Steve in SLO]

That’s a beautiful go-fast bike.
I have owned seven Moots and currently still have three so I am a fan of the brand, but in the spirit of “You can’t please all the people all the time”, I don’t understand those 3D dropout modules. They look like a repair that detracts from the usual Moots elegance.