future of campy and lower gearing?

[robertbb]

OK this is going to be a long post but I'm really enjoying this discussion...

As I posted on a similar thread on another forum....

"I can kinda see what Campy's getting at with the rumoured 9t cog. Someone mentioned "overdrive" earlier and it seems a good way to describe the concept. Whereas overdrive has in the past been for the low gear (big sprocket) this time it's with the high gear (small sprocket). One's gotta look at the speeds they normally ride at and choose a chainring that compliments the cassette to give nice tight cog spacing (8-10% changes) within their typical speed range and also an "extreme" low gear (aka: granny gear) for climbing and an "extreme" high gear for descending, sprinting, generally hauling ass.

Bigger jumps at the extremes, transitioning towards nice and tight steps in the middle. That's the name of the game with 1x. It's a different paradigm to traditional road cassettes which are usually tight at the high gears and gradually bigger at the low gears."

Anyway, the gear-calculator.com website is incredibly useful for visualising this stuff.

I'm in the process of building my first 1x11 bike and it'll be a hacked together v-brake city bike. Ended up going with my first MTB groupset ever (and first non-Campy groupset ever) because I wanted flat-bar shifting/braking. Went with a 40t chainring up front.

I used the website to compare two 11speed cassettes:

Campy Centaur 12-32
Shimano HG-700 11-34

The comparison is here:

http://www.gear-calculator.com/?GR=D...30,34&UF2=2185

Centaur on top HG-700 on bottom.

Now, other than the HG-700 having a slightly wider range the key point is where the tight jumps are clustered and how that relates to a single chainring. Whereas the Centaur cassette has nice, tight jumps at speeds between 26-35km/h, the HG-700 cassette is tighter in the 15-24km/h range.

I wouldn't dream of pairing the 11-34 with a double chainset for primarily road use, but with a 1x system that cassette just makes more sense (when paired with a chainring selected for the types of riding you will be doing).

With that all said, the 9t cog may actually make a lot of sense in the "overdrive" scenario in which it is intended to be used rarely. Definitely looking forward to seeing what Campy does in this space! As has been said, multiple chainring options is key! With sensible cassette options 1x13 for anything other than pure road riding might be a real winner.

[sjbraun]

Another thing I don't get about 1x- people talk about all you have to do is change your chain ring to match your ride. Really?? What a pain in rear. With a 2x, 48x31 and 11-34 in the back I can ride darn near anything I encounter and golly, shifting a front derailleur really isn't that cumbersome. Plus, if I need more gears, I'd much rather change a cassette than mess with changing a chain ring.

Okay- rant over.

[Velocipede]

Originally Posted by sjbraun

Another thing I don't get about 1x- people talk about all you have to do is change your chain ring to match your ride. Really?? What a pain in rear. With a 2x, 48x31 and 11-34 in the back I can ride darn near anything I encounter and golly, shifting a front derailleur really isn't that cumbersome. Plus, if I need more gears, I'd much rather change a cassette than mess with changing a chain ring.

Okay- rant over.

Changing a ring on a 4 bolt crank is super fast. Faster than pulling a wheel, replacing the cassette, putting the wheel back in. Adjusting the derailleur and brake. It takes about 5 minutes if that to swap a ring out on most 1x cranks. Unless it's the kind where the ring is splined and you need to pull the crank. Even then that's not horribly time consuming. I get your point though.

[voir dire]

Originally Posted by sjbraun

Another thing I don't get about 1x- people talk about all you have to do is change your chain ring to match your ride. Really?? What a pain in rear. With a 2x, 48x31 and 11-34 in the back I can ride darn near anything I encounter and golly, shifting a front derailleur really isn't that cumbersome. Plus, if I need more gears, I'd much rather change a cassette than mess with changing a chain ring.

Okay- rant over.

This.
Changing a chainring is not really so fast or convenient at all for many people; it is a hassle. Lose a chainring bolt, even worse. Having to pull the crankset to replace the chainring and then reverse the process when one gets home just to go on a different ride? That's crazy, even more a hassle.

1x13 with a 9T "in the "overdrive" scenario in which it is intended to be used rarely" effectively means the 1X13 is practically speaking 1x12.

Having to buy multiple chainrings for various rides seems a hassle whereas many people own two or more wheelsets with two different cassettes, and the wheel swap truly is immediate, the most simple operation of all. Even changing cassettes is a 5-minute job at best, very simple.

1x13 seems a restricted market-driven niche which maybe will be fashionable for a short while but very possibly just another fad that is not any really significant improvement to most riding. But I know I am not the target market for 1x at all.

[morrisond]

Yay - 9T and 13 gears - that also works great for 2x - it would be really nice tight gearing.

A 9-22 Straight Block (to 20 and then a jump to 22) in the back and 43/27 in the front - that would give me slightly more gear Inches in the front (129 vs 127.6) vs 52/11 and slighlty lower in the back than 36/29 - 33.1 vs 33.5

[Dave]

From the weight weenies website, more info on Campy 1X13.

https://www.pat2pdf.org/patents/pat20200239105.pdf
https://www.pat2pdf.org/patents/pat20200240506.pdf

Noteably are three 13-speed cassette specs:

9-10-11-12-13-14-16-18-21-25-30-36-42

9-10-11-12-13-14-16-18-20-23-27-31-36

10-11-12-13-14-15-17-19-22-26-32-38-44

We may see 13 speed also be applied to 2X road bike applications, but it may only be on disc brake bikes.

I'm pleased with the SRAM 10-36 cassette on my chorus 12 bike. From the info above, I can see that Campy would choose different sprocket jumps for a 10-36 12 speed cassette. Drop the 9T off. Then you get 10-11-12-13-14-16-18-20-23-27-31-36. SRAM chose 10-11-12-13-15-17-19-21-24-28-32-36.

[vespasianus]

Originally Posted by Dave

From the weight weenies website, more info on Campy 1X13.

https://www.pat2pdf.org/patents/pat20200239105.pdf
https://www.pat2pdf.org/patents/pat20200240506.pdf

Noteably are three 13-speed cassette specs:

9-10-11-12-13-14-16-18-21-25-30-36-42

9-10-11-12-13-14-16-18-20-23-27-31-36

10-11-12-13-14-15-17-19-22-26-32-38-44

We may see 13 speed also be applied to 2X road bike applications, but it may only be on disc brake bikes.

I'm pleased with the SRAM 10-36 cassette on my chorus 12 bike. From the info above, I can see that Campy would choose different sprocket jumps for a 10-36 12 speed cassette. Drop the 9T off. Then you get 10-11-12-13-14-16-18-20-23-27-31-36. SRAM chose 10-11-12-13-15-17-19-21-24-28-32-36.

On a completely separate topic, as someone who writes patents for biology stuff, I am dumfounded you can get a patent for this...

[Velocipede]

Originally Posted by vespasianus

On a completely separate topic, as someone who writes patents for biology stuff, I am dumfounded you can get a patent for this...

The reading on some of the things they file and GET, amazing! I'm still shocked on some of them.

[rain dogs]

Originally Posted by robertbb

I wouldn't dream of pairing the 11-34 with a double chainset for primarily road use, but with a 1x system that cassette just makes more sense (when paired with a chainring selected for the types of riding you will be doing).

Huh? Why not? An 11-34 only makes sense for a 2x system as it would be terrible as 1x unless you live where it's flat.

Going up a 12%-15% slopes with a 42 x 34 sounds bad on road, but off road that's just plain awful.

1x with anything less than a 40 or 42 on the back is just silly IMHO. Unless you have a tiny chainring up front, but then it's equally silly.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by rain dogs

Going up a 12%-15% slopes with a 42 x 34 sounds bad on road, but off road that's just plain awful.

Back in the day, we used it ride those slopes in even bigger gears - say, a 42 x 24 (or even lower). But that's back when cylists were tough, and real cyclists rode straight blocks:

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showt...straight+block

[FlashUNC]

Originally Posted by voir dire

This.
Changing a chainring is not really so fast or convenient at all for many people; it is a hassle. Lose a chainring bolt, even worse. Having to pull the crankset to replace the chainring and then reverse the process when one gets home just to go on a different ride? That's crazy, even more a hassle.

1x13 with a 9T "in the "overdrive" scenario in which it is intended to be used rarely" effectively means the 1X13 is practically speaking 1x12.

Having to buy multiple chainrings for various rides seems a hassle whereas many people own two or more wheelsets with two different cassettes, and the wheel swap truly is immediate, the most simple operation of all. Even changing cassettes is a 5-minute job at best, very simple.

1x13 seems a restricted market-driven niche which maybe will be fashionable for a short while but very possibly just another fad that is not any really significant improvement to most riding. But I know I am not the target market for 1x at all.

Uh you don't need to pull the crankset to swap rings. Really, it's only 4 bolts.

[rain dogs]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

Back in the day, we used it ride those slopes in even bigger gears - say, a 42 x 24 (or even lower). But that's back when cylists were tough, and real cyclists rode straight blocks:

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showt...straight+block

It has nothing to do with "is it humanly possible" ie. stupid to push big gears like that, it's what makes sense for general use. Most 'gravel' offerings on the market are still over-geared for everything but hero gravel.

and before another response like above comes... I use to ride a brakeless fixed gear with a 52x15 (91") in a hilly city, but I wouldn't go advocating even half that for a low gear on a gravel bike. Besides, aren't we tired yet of the whole whip it out and measure inches? gear inches of course....

[voir dire]

Originally Posted by FlashUNC

Uh you don't need to pull the crankset to swap rings. Really, it's only 4 bolts.

Uh I never claimed one had to pull a crankset. The other guy did. I was responding to that statement.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by rain dogs

It has nothing to do with "is it humanly possible" ie. stupid to push big gears like that, it's what makes sense for general use. Most 'gravel' offerings on the market are still over-geared for everything but hero gravel.

and before another response like above comes... I use to ride a brakeless fixed gear with a 52x15 (91") in a hilly city, but I wouldn't go advocating even half that for a low gear on a gravel bike. Besides, aren't we tired yet of the whole whip it out and measure inches? gear inches of course....

Sorry, I forgot to hold up the sign when I posted that.

[FlashUNC]

Originally Posted by voir dire

Uh I never claimed one had to pull a crankset. The other guy did. I was responding to that statement.

You did. But whatevs man. You do you.