OT: The cold elephant in the room... - Page 5

BobbyJones · #61 06-20-2021, 01:48 PM

James- Whereabouts are you?

In my travels on ground across the US over the past few years I've seen land like that disappear bit by bit. You'll have those city folks as neighbors soon enough!

Until then, it looks like a great place to be!

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamesdak

No guilt on my end. I"m old, cranky and just don't care!

Oh and I drive 23 miles one way to work each day and in the winter that requires my 4x4 truck. I'll be danged if I'll live in a city surrounded by a bunch of people I want nothing to do with.

Not to mention I get to leave from my house each day for a long ride for views like this. The city folk have to drive their cars to come ride in this view.

RWL2222 · #62 06-20-2021, 01:48 PM

TLDR but I will say that open fridges in the store bug me. We generally have not used AC except on the hottest days, but I have to think AC use is a bigger waste.

nickl · #63 06-20-2021, 02:06 PM

The biggest environmental issue with refrigeration and AC are HFC (hydrofluorocarbon) emissions, an enormous source of greenhouse gas.

The United States and other developed countries are instituting regulations to minimize this problem and 3rd world nations, a smaller source of these pollutants, are following with stricter international protocols. Hopefully this enough to result in a positive impact.

https://www.npr.org/2021/05/03/99305...greenhouse-gas

gary135r · #64 06-20-2021, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William

So, let’s talk about the elephant in the energy room…your refrigerator.

I’ll posit that it’s probably the largest waste of human consumed energy on the planet. Yet rarely ever talked about when people start talking about energy waste. It’s a large appliance that the vast majority of people on this planet own and use. Many people own and use more than one. It runs 24/7/365 to maintain set temperatures…and every time it gets opened all that cold air that was produced gets dumped on the floor (cold air decends) and wasted. It has to work overtime to produce more cold air until it hits the set temperature, then has to maintain it until the next time the door gets opened.

How many times a day does your refrigerator door get opened?

How many times have you, or someone in your family opened the door to only stare in the fridge wondering what there is to eat in there?

I’m not advocating for the abolishment of the refrigerator, but more just commenting on what seems to be an overlooked/forgotten/ignored huge waste of energy. It would seem that a changeover to a chest style fridge would eliminate all that waste. When the door gets opened all that cold air would be contained making it work significantly less on a daily basis. I’m fully aware that a chest style fridge would take up a larger footprint, and there are a small percentage of people who might have difficulty using one, but overall it would be a significant dent in energy usage and waste. For people who go off grid, this is one of the main things they do to minimize the draw on the batteries.

I mean, if energy waste is a big deal to people, then this seems like low hanging fruit…but fruit that seems to mostly be ignored.

Anyway, just my green thought for the day.

W.

PS: Refrigerators are historically a-political so this shouldn’t really run in that direction.

I'm with you brother. I rail against my wife and her constant opening of the freezer especially to get drinks cold. She say the freezer is not working right and I respond that she opens it so often that it is always trying to get back to temperature.

William · #65 06-20-2021, 02:27 PM

Hey, no one said you can’t have a fridge. And no one said you can’t have your AC…though it’s easier to live without AC then it is without a fridge imo.

I think people are getting hung up on…

A.) their particular living situation.
B.) Their regional situation,
C.) focusing on the U.S.
D.) Moving off the fridge to other appliances or building methods.

Though all important, that’s not what I’m talking about. All those other things can change depending on region of the world you want to focus on. I would say what is fairly consistent across all the different regions is fridge usage. I’m just pondering globally here.

I think also the energy rating for refrigerators don’t really reflect real world usage. Those ratings can change dramatically with FDO…especially involving kids and middle age males who like to stare in the fridge and wonder what to eat next.

An interesting study in the International energy journal done by the Department of Mechanical Engineering University of Malaya
Kuala Lumpur MALAYSIA…likely a lot of AC usage there as well.

Quote:

according to ISO 8187 [4],
a refrigerator is tested at 32 oC without loading any food and opening the refrigerator door.

In this study three factors that may have a major influence on temperature are: heat source (HS), temperature setting (TS), and frequency of door openings (FDO)….

http://eprints.um.edu.my/6895/1/Actu...r-freezers.pdf

If you can find others regarding real world usage please post them up for comparison.

W.

makoti · #66 06-20-2021, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dustyrider

I lived in casa grande and picacho Arizona for more than a year. And a lot of that time I lived off the back of a DR650! I live in grand junction Colorado currently it’s almost 100f. I am currently enjoying AC in my home, but didn’t have it for the last two summers(remodel). Yes it sucks to live without AC, but life can go on without AC. Where as un-refrigerated food…

Yes, that's hot. Dry. Just like your oven.
Until you've done anything like that with dew points in the 70s, you can do without AC. When the air is the consistency of homemade soup, "oppressive" becomes a word with new meaning and AC gains a new level of appreciation.

dustyrider · #67 06-20-2021, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by makoti

Yes, that's hot. Dry. Just like your oven.
Until you've done anything like that with dew points in the 70s, you can do without AC. When the air is the consistency of homemade soup, "oppressive" becomes a word with new meaning and AC gains a new level of appreciation.

Humidity is worse than a lot of things I can think of. I grew up in New England, lived for over a year in the PNW(spent countless summers there as well), and spent a couple months in Thailand. Humidity is the pits. Those places are the only places that I could actually enjoy a cold shower!

William I think I found a solution: Yakhchal. It seems if you want to keep something cold, you should ask people that lived in desert climates without electricity!

jamesdak · #68 06-20-2021, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobbyJones

James- Whereabouts are you?

In my travels on ground across the US over the past few years I've seen land like that disappear bit by bit. You'll have those city folks as neighbors soon enough!

Until then, it looks like a great place to be!

Yeah, this is northern Utah and it's already happening. I'm out of here when I fully retire in a few years. Like so many other areas are dealing with, we are getting a huge influx of Californians into our once rural mountain valley and then are trying to muck it up just as bad as they have the state they left. Typical complaint heard all around the west these days....

Ozz · #69 06-20-2021, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamesdak

...we are getting a huge influx of Californians into our once rural mountain valley and then are trying to muck it up just as bad as they have the state they left. .......

I am sure the Utes and Paiutes thought the same thing.....

jamesdak · #70 06-20-2021, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ozz

I am sure the Utes and Paiutes thought the same thing.....

Good point....maybe we should start scalping the Californians!!

William · #71 06-20-2021, 05:46 PM

I'm sure we could have a rousing discussion following this back to the begining of human existence and the first people who came from over the hill to drink out of someone elses water hole...but let's not. It has nothing to do with refrigerators and real world energy usage. Plus, it will likely end up with time outs so again, please stick to the topic at hand. If you can't do that then move along to the next thread please.

W.

jamesdak · #72 06-20-2021, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William

I'm sure we could have a rousing discussion following this back to the begining of human existence and the first people who came from over the hill to drink out of someone elses water hole...but let's not. It has nothing to do with refrigerators and real world energy usage. Plus, it will likely end up with time outs so again, please stick to the topic at hand. If you can't do that then move along to the next thread please.

W.

Oh man.... just when it was starting to get interesting....

Moving on!

Ozz · #73 06-20-2021, 06:14 PM

Sorry, totally not trying to stir anything up....just saying that people move around, and we all came from somewhere else.

Seattle has been complaining about folks from CA driving up home prices since I was a kid...that ship sailed a long time ago.

William · #74 06-20-2021, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ozz

Sorry, totally not trying to stir anything up....just saying that people move around, and we all came from somewhere else.

Seattle has been complaining about folks from CA driving up home prices since I was a kid...that ship sailed a long time ago.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ozz

Sorry, totally not trying to stir anything up....just saying that people move around, and we all came from somewhere else.

Seattle has been complaining about folks from CA driving up home prices since I was a kid...that ship sailed a long time ago.

No worries, I just didn't want the thread veering off-course into the bush.

I know what you are saying since I've heard it from our area (even as a kid) as well as Oregon throughout the 90's. Right or wrong is irrelevent for our purposes here.

Now, anyone found any other studies yet on real world enrgy usage of the old trustry fridge?

W.

jds108 · #75 06-20-2021, 08:01 PM

Fridge seems like small potatoes. First thing that comes to mind for me re: wasting electricity is an ordinary old-school electric water heater. Looks like those use more than 10x the electric of a typical fridge.

https://www.directenergy.com/learnin...frigerator-use
https://www.directenergy.com/learnin...8%20per%20year.

I've also got an electric dryer and central A/C, and I'm sure they're both using more electricity than the fridge.

One note - the new hybrid water heaters (heat pump) are supposed to be vastly more efficient. I've got a new one in the basement awaiting installation.