Should a tubeless tire be able to hold air without sealant?

[caneye]

Originally Posted by prototoast

In my experience, some tubeless tires hold air indefinitely without sealant (Mavic and Hutchinson tires come to mind).

Others might hold air for a few hours or overnight, but not much longer (Specialized, Schwalbe).

And others don't hold air at all without sealant (Panaracer, Vittoria).

It's interesting that you mentioned panaracer.
I've got a Panaracer (Agilest) Tubeless road tyres set up - front and rear on identical wheels using the same Joe's sealant. Basically the same set-up.
Rear holds pressure well. Front loses 30psi in just 2 days. I cannot figure out where the leak(s) is coming from. I've topped up the sealant once already. Will add more sealant again.

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by caneye

It's interesting that you mentioned panaracer.
I've got a Panaracer (Agilest) Tubeless road tyres set up - front and rear on identical wheels using the same Joe's sealant. Basically the same set-up.
Rear holds pressure well. Front loses 30psi in just 2 days. I cannot figure out where the leak(s) is coming from. I've topped up the sealant once already. Will add more sealant again.

Submerge the tire in water and look for bubbles.

[dumbod]

Originally Posted by Likes2ridefar

I’ve used many sealants and don’t think it matters much.

Yes there are a few I’ve found bad like muc off. But otherwise just stick with a popular brand or get what the lbs uses.

Orange seal, Stan’s, wtb, etc.

I have a SILCA version I’m going to try next. it cost more and I hope it lives up to it. never know if you don’t try it

If you don’t change tires frequently check monthly to see if you still have sealant inside. My guesstimate is 2-3 months for me in arizona.

According to the tests I’ve seen Silca seals larger punctures than any other sealant. However, setup is a major PITA because you can’t use a syringe for the initial setup. You have to pour it into the tire directly into the tire. That’s probably fine if you install lots of tires but as I only do it once or twice a year, I don’t have the knack so it’s always a mess.

I’ve been using it for a year with no punctures but I’m considering using something else because it’s easier.

[xaztec]

Originally Posted by prototoast

In my experience, some tubeless tires hold air indefinitely without sealant (Mavic and Hutchinson tires come to mind).

Others might hold air for a few hours or overnight, but not much longer (Specialized, Schwalbe).

And others don't hold air at all without sealant (Panaracer, Vittoria).

I just mounted a Schwalbe Racing Ray and Racing Ralph to my DT Swiss EX471 rims with 27mm DT Swiss tubeless tape (built them myself) and they've held air for weeks with no sealant. I've only had to top them off once or twice.

[weaponsgrade]

There was as recent Silca video I saw that made a distinction between tubeless tires and tubeless ready tires. I actually didn't know there was a difference. Apparently, tires that are missing the inner "coating" (like RH Superlights) need a healthy dose of sealant to be absorbed into casing so that they retain air. Josh described the tire as being made 75% complete.

Since we're on the topic of tubeless, another tip he gave is to lightly lubricate the valve stem and core to prevent clogging. I've had issues with clogged valves and I'm planning on trying that one.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by weaponsgrade

There was as recent Silca video I saw that made a distinction between tubeless tires and tubeless ready tires. I actually didn't know there was a difference. Apparently, tires that are missing the inner "coating" (like RH Superlights) need a healthy dose of sealant to be absorbed into casing so that they retain air. Josh described the tire as being made 75% complete.

Exactly this. There have been true tubeless bicycle tires, like Mavic's UST system, that were air-tight without requiring sealant. But these systems were proprietary (although others could make it under license) and had to use specific wheels and tires, with little mix-and-match between brands and systems. These systems didn't gain much traction in the market, so in the vacuum, various tinkerers and small companies experimented with different rims and tires and tapes and sealants, cobbling together their own tubeless setups, with little standardization between them. Out of this hodgepodge came the mess that we were just emerging from, when other companies decided to stir the pot some more by introducing hookless rims*.

As above, the tires in the bicycle industry are better named "tubeless ready" rather than "tubeless", because unlike the true tubeless tires in other industries, bicycle tires won't hold air without employing some type of sealant goo.


*Some proponents of hookless bicycle rims will point out that other industries have used hookless rims for decades - but this argument is a bit specious. In all those other industries, hookless systems rely on using tires with stiff steel beads to hold the tire on the rim, whereas the bicycle industry insists on using flexible cord beads (the rim hook was developed largely to keep cord bead tires on rims at high pressure). If hookless bicycle rims were used with steel bead tires, there wouldn't have been the issue of tires blowing off rims, even at higher pressures.

[FastCanon]

Originally Posted by fignon's barber

That's exactly why I'm trying tubeless. Almost all rims now are tubeless ready, and the tubeless rim shoulders make changing tubed flats "challenging" on the side of the road. Good old clincher rims and tires were so easy, until recently I never even carried levers.

Tubeless rims have center wells that are deeper. Use that to your advantage when changing tires. I can change Continental 5000 S TR tires without tire levers. Granted some middle channels are not as deep as some.

[Dave]

All of my tubeless tires have lots of sealant stuck to the bead area, indicating that leaks occur around the bead as it stretches over time. It defeats the purpose to run a tubeless tires without sealant, since the first minor puncture won't seal.

[bigbill]

I seated Schwalbe Ones on a set of wheels with Quill rims about three hours ago. I used a compressor to seat the tire, deflated and installed the valve core, and used a floor pump to 90# to let them sit a while before I deflate again and add sealant. They are still at 90#.

The rims have new muc-off tape and valves. I'll add sealant tomorrow right before I head out of a ride.

[RoosterCogset]

Originally Posted by fignon's barber

OK, so I tested them. No tape, just mounted and did a 15 minute test run. Left them overnight. Maintained about 75% of the air. I liked the light feel of them without tubes. The main purpose of this was to see if it would be worth the hassle of sealant. Based on the feel, I think I like tubeless and will set up with sealant.

Pretty much the advantage of tubeless is flat protection because they have sealant. IMO, not much point, even if a TL tire can stay inflated without sealant, to purchase a heavier TL tire (compared to a regular tubed clincher counterpart) otherwise.

[wooger]

Originally Posted by weaponsgrade

There was as recent Silca video I saw that made a distinction between tubeless tires and tubeless ready tires. I actually didn't know there was a difference. Apparently, tires that are missing the inner "coating" (like RH Superlights) need a healthy dose of sealant to be absorbed into casing so that they retain air. Josh described the tire as being made 75% complete.

Since we're on the topic of tubeless, another tip he gave is to lightly lubricate the valve stem and core to prevent clogging. I've had issues with clogged valves and I'm planning on trying that one.

Tubeless ready tyres are an annoying scam to reduce the weight on the spec sheet, save the manufacturer money. They become functionally identical after eating 20 odd ml of sealant.

Trying that oil on the valve core / stem now, hoping it help then stay clog free for longer, but no ill effects as yet.

Originally Posted by RoosterCogset

Pretty much the advantage of tubeless is flat protection because they have sealant. IMO, not much point, even if a TL tire can stay inflated without sealant, to purchase a heavier TL tire (compared to a regular tubed clincher counterpart) otherwise.

The extra cost (sometimes 2x) is at least as good a reason not to buy them to run with tubes or something.

But the other advantage of tubeless is faster rolling, even vs latex tubes at this point (just).

[s4life]

Not sure why you'd want to use tubeless w/o sealant, but it would be unreliable to ride like that..

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by s4life

Not sure why you'd want to use tubeless w/o sealant, but it would be unreliable to ride like that..

I don't think the question is really about riding tubeless tires without sealant. It's more about when you're setting things up, how confident are you that your rim/tape/valve/tire are working well together before you insert sealant. Because it's a lot easier to fix your rim tape or swap out a valve before you've added the sealant.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by RoosterCogset

Pretty much the advantage of tubeless is flat protection because they have sealant. IMO, not much point, even if a TL tire can stay inflated without sealant, to purchase a heavier TL tire (compared to a regular tubed clincher counterpart) otherwise.

Tubeless tires and sealants were two different things, developed at two different times for two different purposes, whose evolution collided with each other. Bicycle tube sealants had been around for decades before bicycle tubeless tires, and were primarily used to keep the tires/tubes from flatting when punctured. Tubeless bicycle tires were first developed for MTBs, and the intent wasn't to prevent flatting from punctures, it was to prevent pinch flats (if there is no tube, there's no tube to pinch). But some enterprising individuals decided to try running non-tubeless tires without tubes, but those tires wouldn't hold air without adding sealant into the tire. "Tubeless-ready" tires are a bodge that became codified.

[weaponsgrade]

Originally Posted by wooger

Tubeless ready tyres are an annoying scam to reduce the weight on the spec sheet, save the manufacturer money. They become functionally identical after eating 20 odd ml of sealant.

It's quite brilliant actually. Sell a tire missing components. Market it as superlight. Price it 20% more than the complete tire. Sell the sealant as a separate component needed to make the tire complete.