Strange(?) Serotta Nova Special

[Fat Cat]

I can't find any pix of anything like this to give me some idea of it's age. At any rate, if someone might be able to help me out I'd much appreciated it.
It's SL and has a 128mm rear.
The same serial number is stamped on the steerer tube. That number would presumably be for 1988 if the accepted code is in action but none of the catalog models around that time show fastback seat stays or the socketed dropouts like those on this frameset.
The graphics are sort of late '80s but nothing like the ones on the 1985 Nova Special that I have. And it does not appear to have ever had an "X" on the top tube..
If other pix would help just let me know
Thanks
Charlie

[Fat Cat]

OK

So,any thoughts on where else I might search to find some info on this thing? I mean, someone has to know.

Thanks
Charlie

[Big Dan]

I can tell you it's from the 80's or older.

[Fat Cat]

Yeah. I just don't understand why it is that I can't find anything else that is like it.

[Flinch]

Your fork appears to be the same model/construction as my late 70's mystery Serotta, serial BS564. The serial# on yours appears to be 1980 IMHO, take it with a few grains of salt. I've been following/compiling comments on Serotta serial numbers, and here's a quote from a knowledgeable person:

"We hopefully can now say that 1982 - 1984 Serotta serial numbers started with a two digit year code. I believe that 1985 to early 1990 started with a single digit for the year. "

However, I've seen five digit serial numbers starting with 80, matching the bike construction from the same era, thus I believe that the year-code serial number system went into effect in 1980. There's a Club Special on eBay that has a BS prefix serial number close to mine, and it is also stamped with a "79" on the downtube - perhaps indicating year. Check the side of your downtube carefully - it may have a faint stamp. It has a socketed fork though, unlike mine. Not sure when these smooth shoulder forks were introduced/discontinued, or why they both seem to appear on bikes from different years (ie: smooth shouldered one year then socketed, then smooth...). Could be simply a custom thing.

Mine:

[Flinch]

I looked a little closer at your fork: It's lugged on the inside, but smooth on the outer shoulder. Mine is smooth all around. Also, the cable guides on top of your shell is an early (late 70's-80's ?) 'feature'. Mine is under the BB, so no consistency. Earlier bikes used whatever lugs/BB were available or specified as custom orders.

Also, something is really bugging me about your seat stays. Most Club Specials I've seen have scalloped stays where they meet the seatpost - yours are fastback style. Not at all sure, but you may have a repaint/re-decal of another frame model. Keep it in mind. Hopefully other Serotta geeks will chip in here.
PS Here's a page from the 1980 Serotta 'Catalog' - all four pages...

[oliver1850]

I have at least six Novas or Club Specials and don't recall ever seeing that style dropout, fork tip, or seat stay attachment on one. Most have Campagnolo dropouts but I have seen Shimano. The mid 1970s catalog lists Mavic and Milremo dropouts on some models but I don't know what either looks like. I'm not sure whether any of my frames have that brake bridge, will have to look. Since Serotta specialized in custom frames there may be no way to pin a model name on this frame. My guess is that it's a 1980 frame based on the serial number. I think I've seen BS serial numbers from as late as 1978. There were a couple of different serial number systems later, before they came up with the two letter model codes with the size included - around 1990.

[Fat Cat]

Big bag o' thanks to all for the thoughts !

Yes the fastback stays are way problematic. I find that style only on Ti frames. Nothing steel has them. And if it is a re-spray someone went to a massive effort with the two-tone paint and for what just to put Nova Special stickers on it ? The '85 that I have also has butterfly cable guides.

I'm fine with the '80 date but the socketed dropouts and the stays still don't seem to compute.

The Truth Is Out There ......

Many thanks again

Edit : no number on down tube

[mhespenheide]

I am very much *not* an expert on Serottas, but I would say it's extremely likely that that frame has been repainted. The paint job looks late 80's to mid-90's to me, but welded cable guides above the bottom bracket were exceptionally rare after the early 80's.

Socketed caps for the seatstay, chainstay, and fork tips also aren't something I'm used to seeing from Serotta either. Nor the fastback-style seatstays.

But again, I'm not an expert on their history.

[Fat Cat]

My 1985(?) serial number 5703 with Cinelli bottom bracket and butterfly cable guides and old style graphics missing some torn pieces that I removed

[Flinch]

Hmmm, not to dogpile, but I am wondering if this is not a Serotta at all. No expertise here, just managing 'multiple working hypothesis'.

Frame details bothering me:
- BB is cast, and I can't decode the manufacture stamp on the side - anyone?
- As mentioned, the lug styles
- Stamping on the brake bridge, never seen that on a Serotta
- Again, the fork having smooth shoulders yet partial lug inside leg/shoulder
- Repaint, but then again mine is also a repaint
- Fastback stays

About the Silva bridge: "By 1975 SILVA was collaborating with companies like Colnago, De Rosa, Olmo, and Bianchi, producing special alloy components for frame building. The brake bridge of the mid 80's X4 Bianchi is an example of this type of work. During the 1980's SILVA expanded their operations and began supplying manufacturers outside Italy, mainly in Europe." [As stated below, I'm NOT suggesting OPs' frame is a Bianchi ]

The BB shell appears to be an ATB C69M (OPs' frame is C69E)- see pic below.

Could Ben have used these parts? Maybe, as early-on whatever was available was used. But by 1980...?

Milremo dropout:


Mavik dropout:


Silva brake bridge on Bianchi (NOT suggesting this frame is Bianchi !)


ATB C69M BB shell:

[Fat Cat]

Certainly interesting
Obviously the same brake bridge and the inference for the bottom bracket (c-69-e) seems spot on.

But if that was high end stuff used by the likes of Colnago, De Rosa, Olmo, and Bianchi why would anybody go to the trouble to paint and sticker it as a Serotta?

Not that it couldn't be something else, but that's all a REAL effort for what? And just a Nova Special at that? I mean the paint alone .... Pointless but *** hahaha

[Flinch]

Originally Posted by Fat Cat

But if that was high end stuff used by the likes of Colnago, De Rosa, Olmo, and Bianchi why would anybody go to the trouble to paint and sticker it as a Serotta?

Just as an aside - I really think that half the fun of owning a vintage bike is researching and figuring out who killed Mr. Mustard, and in what room, with the candlestick.

Now, if it runs out that OPs bike really is a Serotta - wow, learned something new today! In any case, the bike is certainly nice, and interesting.

[cp43]

Another possibility, it started life as a Serotta, was damaged at some point, and was repaired and repainted. Potentially the repair was not done with the same parts/techniques as the original. As the poster above, I have no evidence for this, just throwing it out there as a possibility.

I do agree that it seems strange that someone would paint it as a Serotta if it wasn't one, but, people do strange things sometimes...

Chris

[Fat Cat]

Originally Posted by cp43

Another possibility, it started life as a Serotta, was damaged at some point, and was repaired and repainted. Potentially the repair was not done with the same parts/techniques as the original. As the poster above, I have no evidence for this, just throwing it out there as a possibility.

I do agree that it seems strange that someone would paint it as a Serotta if it wasn't one, but, people do strange things sometimes...

Chris

Yeah, it would have to have been crushed to change everything end to end.

I can see faking a Colnago Super or one of the Serotta team race bike things, but a Nova Special? That's not even worth the time for practice.