E-bikes and exercise intensity

[Tony]

Originally Posted by Burnette

Right, MTB and motorcycle/ATV have programs and some make distinctions where all can come (and join in maintenance programs) and some ban motorized vehicles.

If established groups observe ebikes as to do equal damage to trails as motorcycles and ATVs then I'm sure they will make that distinction.

I imagine squirting the throttle and spinning knobby tires up climbs churns the dirt. I have been with a group on a single track trail on human powered MTBs and we did a pretty good job of rutting the trail (I'm probably more guilty of this as I suck on a MTB).

In your estimation, does one ebike MTB rider's trip through the trail equal a group of six or eight MTB riders? How much more damage does the ebike do compared to a traditional MTB?

I haven't ridden an ebike MTB and cannot draw any conclusions from my own experience so I'll read the thoughts from those of you who have. It is an interesting angle.

None. I have been riding with e mtber's for a year now in many different soil conditions and see no difference in damage. I also see no difference in safety of other users. If one rides irresponsibly on a mtb, he/she will do the same on an e mtb. Its not the bike its the rider

Here's video of several e mtbs in different conditions. How much difference do you see compared to a mtb? None
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1hZEwM7T6A

[Burnette]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

I get what you are saying, but I think you're suggesting to fine a level of distinction than is practical. eMTBs can have varying levels of power assist, from nearly none to a lot. While you could try to find out what level of eMTB power assist causes damage above or below some threshold, how would you formulate a practical regulation so it was clear which eMTBs were allowed and which weren't? But an even bigger distinction might be one of politics and perception. There are many areas were it was difficult to get access for standard MTBs, or where standard MTBs are grudgingly tolerated. In those areas, if a push was made to allow eMTBs (which most non-cyclists can't distinguish by eye for standard MTBs), it could lead to banning (or re-banning) of all wheeled vehicles. The main advocacy organization for MTBs in New England is the New England Mountain Bike Association (NEMBA), whose position on eMTBs is:

True, again, I've never ridden and ebike MTB and I agree that it would be hard access the damage they do versus regular MTBs but it's worth figuring out to form a valid and accurate claim. From my couch it seems like they would be way worse than a large group but I have no idea if that's true.

I do get the point that if pushed, ebike MTBs could cause the banning of all types on some trails, that's a real possibility as being heavy handed and following an easy path is what committees do best. And that isn't good for anyone.

I don't think assited power is a draw for me persoanlly, I can climb well enough, I just don't ride off road hardly at all and lack the technical skills. An ebike would only make me crash faster For now the road still is my place to ride.

But I do see the draw of ebike MTBs for others, you can ride faster and for longer (Viagra for bicycles ) and I'm sure they will find an audience.

To your point I hope they find a way to coexist without rocking the boat. Thank you for your thoughts.

[rinconryder]

It’s pretty simple really. For the same effort level on an E bike (watts) you are going to cover more ground. So if you were to compare an e bike vs regular bike and capped the distance to 20 miles for both the rider on the regular bike will have worked harder. But if you went off of time and said both ride an hour the same energy can be output, the e bike will just have covered more ground.

[Burnette]

Originally Posted by Tony

None. I have been riding with e mtber's for a year now in many different soil conditions and see no difference in damage. I also see no difference in safety of other users. If one rides irresponsibly on a mtb, he/she will do the same on an e mtb. Its not the bike its the rider

Good to know.

And you hit on something I couldn't articulate earlier. On the groups rides on single track, as I posted, we did a good job of kicking up dirt, skidding mostly and I really should go back and replant a sapling or two I took out. I see what you're saying about personal responsibility.

Unless an ebiker is doing continuous burnouts is she/he really any worse than a regular bike? Skidding, going off track are the same on either ebike or regular bike I guess

As far as trail damage goes, is the only difference between an ebike and a regular bike is that you can spin the rear tire faster and longer? And to your point does anybody really do that? You would have to be an irresponsible person to do that and that's not the ebike's fault.

[Jaybee]

Originally Posted by Tony

None. I have been riding with e mtber's for a year now in many different soil conditions and see no difference in damage. I also see no difference in safety of other users. If one rides irresponsibly on a mtb, he/she will do the same on an e mtb. Its not the bike its the rider

This has been mostly my experience as well. I'm maybe a little cynical about trail user conflicts and e-bikes being used as loophole to close trails to regular bikes, but more damage happens to the trails in Golden on a single muddy morning with hikers/bikers/equestrians than e-bikers on a normal day. If I had to single out a group that disproportionately harms the trail, it would be the horse people.

IME, most dry condition trail damage from bikes occurs on descents from sloppy braking into corners and skidding, not from spinning the tires on low traction climbs.

[benb]

Here's the thing.. if eMTBs start looking attractive to the crowd that would normally ride a dirt bike or ATV as a second bike due to better access you can guarantee they will very quickly be developing mods to:

- Uncap speed limits
- Boost watts
- Either change or eliminate the need to pedal all together

It is a given.. that is a crowd that loves to tinker and is very libertarian and doesn't like being told what they can and cannot do. A huge majority of that crowd that plays with gasoline will happily do mods that are technically illegal and even the shops that do inspections make sure the stickers get passed out anyway! I am pretty left leaning and environmentally conscious and I did those mods too.

I agree on the equestrian front.. massive hypocrisy there.. never seen an equestrian trail maintenance group. Lots of whining from them about other users. 100% clear as day when you see horses they are trashing the trail. Never see the riders clean up the waste either. Skill & Annoyance level of that crowd seems to be heavily dependent on the area though... wealthy suburban area where the rider pays someone else to board/care for the horse, maximum annoying. More rural area where the rider is the owner of both horse and stable & caretaker they are not annoying at all.

[Tony]

Originally Posted by Burnette

Good to know.

And you hit on something I couldn't articulate earlier. On the groups rides on single track, as I posted, we did a good job of kicking up dirt, skidding mostly and I really should go back and replant a sapling or two I took out. I see what you're saying about personal responsibility.

Unless an ebiker is doing continuous burnouts is she/he really any worse than a regular bike? Skidding, going off track are the same on either ebike or regular bike I guess

As far as trail damage goes, is the only difference between an ebike and a regular bike is that you can spin the rear tire faster and longer? And to your point does anybody really do that? You would have to be an irresponsible person to do that and that's not the ebike's fault.

None of the e mtbs I'm familiar with can do burn outs.
The video posted above https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1hZEwM7T6A none of those bikes can break traction

[Burnette]

Originally Posted by benb

I don't know about the eMTBs in terms of where they will end up falling on the spectrum of hiker -> MTBer -> eMTBer -> Horse -> OHV.

An X/C cross country race or a cyclocross race with 100 participants will do massive damage.

But 5 guys on ATVs can probably do that much damage in an afternoon. And horses can do some massive damage really fast too.

I kind of expect eMTBs to fall in very close to MTBs unless the riders start modifying them.

When you spin the tire on a MTB your pedal drops to the bottom of the pedal stroke as if you dropped your chain.. it takes a lot of care not to have to dab. If the eMTB does the same thing and the power drops to 0 cause you're not pedaling they will be fine cause that will cause the rider to behave like a regular cyclist. If "eMTB" ends up meaning something with a thumb/twist throttle you'll be able to set the pedals level and hold your body still and let the motor spin you up/through and then they'll do a lot more damage. It's way way easier to spin the tire on a dirt bike and maintain control than it is on a MTB.

The options here for Dirt Bikes and ATVs are extremely thin... private property and maybe one state park in Western Massachusetts. Most people that hobby means: 1) Buy a truck 2) Buy a trailer 3) Drive to NH where they let everyone rip everything to shreds.

I have self diagnosed OCPD and going through data and doing the numbers is fun for me.

If I win the lottery, after saving the world and buying that island I would take 100 traditional MTBs, 100 ebike MTBs with the same riders and have them ride the same trail a month apart and go out check the trail after each run.

Well, I would have someone else to check the trail, I would be rich and way too busy to do the leg work but it would be interesting to see the difference.

If you've tested enough theories you know that sometimes what everybody thought was common sense true actually in reality wasn't once tested.

On your last note I sold my ATV a decade ago because there was nowhere to ride unless you packed it up and took it somewhere way off. Looks like I should have moved to NH.

[Burnette]

Originally Posted by Tony

None of the e mtbs I'm familiar with can do burn outs.

Gotya, again, I'm learning from you guys who know. And it's interesting reading. If you can't spin the rear tire like a motor bike then the argument that ebikes cause more harm gets harder to make.

[Tony]

Originally Posted by Burnette

Gotya, again, I'm learning from you guys who know. And it's interesting reading. If you can't spin the rear tire like a motor bike then the argument that ebikes cause more harm gets harder to make.

It's not like a motor bike, anything with a throttle is not an e mtb

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by benb

I agree on the equestrian front.. massive hypocrisy there.. never seen an equestrian trail maintenance group. Lots of whining from them about other users. 100% clear as day when you see horses they are trashing the trail. Never see the riders clean up the waste either. Skill & Annoyance level of that crowd seems to be heavily dependent on the area though... wealthy suburban area where the rider pays someone else to board/care for the horse, maximum annoying. More rural area where the rider is the owner of both horse and stable & caretaker they are not annoying at all.

This is where (sadly) politics come into play. The horse riders (and hikers) got there first, and they'll do what it takes to keep others out. Science and facts often get trumped by influence and money. It useless to argue that not only have studies been done that show horses do more trail damage than other users, but horses are no more natural to the trails than bicycles are (horses are not native to the Americas, and were imported from Europe). And it could be argued that bicycles are more utilitarian than horses as well - when was the last time you saw someone commute to work or run errands on a horse? For most owners, horses are essentially pets - very large pets, but still pets.

[XXtwindad]

https://www.bicycling.com/news/a2003...n-some-trails/

Here are some of the key takeaways:

The environmental impact study found that in the conditions tested, Class 1 e-mountain bikes “were not significantly different” than conventional mountain bikes when it came to soil displacement and tread disturbance. (It did find that e-bikes had more severe impacts in specific situations, such as entering a bermed turn.) The study, though small in scope and size, is the first of its kind.

Yet environmental impacts are only one factor in assessing e-bike access to trails. User conflicts and perceptions play just as large a role, and it seems as though attitudes remain predominantly opposed to the new technology.

In a member survey, IMBA polled more than 4,000 mountain bikers on their experiences with, and perceptions toward, e-bikes. More than a third strongly agreed that e-bikes would increase trail conflicts, and more than half strongly agreed that e-bikes would threaten access for unmotorized riders. Most tellingly, three quarters of respondents agreed or strongly agreed that e-bikes are a form of motorized recreation that do not belong on non-motorized trails.

I think the issue of eBikes on the dirt will be much more heated than on pavement...

[Burnette]

Originally Posted by Tony

It's not like a motor bike, anything with a throttle is not an e mtb

I honestly didn't know that Tony!

I've never ridden one and thanks for sharing what you know and the video. It was informative.

About the video, wow, I get it, they look like fun!

[Tony]

Originally Posted by XXtwindad

https://www.bicycling.com/news/a2003...n-some-trails/

Here are some of the key takeaways:

The environmental impact study found that in the conditions tested, Class 1 e-mountain bikes “were not significantly different” than conventional mountain bikes when it came to soil displacement and tread disturbance. (It did find that e-bikes had more severe impacts in specific situations, such as entering a bermed turn.) The study, though small in scope and size, is the first of its kind.

Yet environmental impacts are only one factor in assessing e-bike access to trails. User conflicts and perceptions play just as large a role, and it seems as though attitudes remain predominantly opposed to the new technology.

In a member survey, IMBA polled more than 4,000 mountain bikers on their experiences with, and perceptions toward, e-bikes. More than a third strongly agreed that e-bikes would increase trail conflicts, and more than half strongly agreed that e-bikes would threaten access for unmotorized riders. Most tellingly, three quarters of respondents agreed or strongly agreed that e-bikes are a form of motorized recreation that do not belong on non-motorized trails.

I think the issue of eBikes on the dirt will be much more heated than on pavement...

These are folks who have never been on a e mtb, I know, I was one of them.

[Burnette]

Originally Posted by XXtwindad

https://www.bicycling.com/news/a2003...n-some-trails/

Here are some of the key takeaways:

The environmental impact study found that in the conditions tested, Class 1 e-mountain bikes “were not significantly different” than conventional mountain bikes when it came to soil displacement and tread disturbance. (It did find that e-bikes had more severe impacts in specific situations, such as entering a bermed turn.) The study, though small in scope and size, is the first of its kind.

Yet environmental impacts are only one factor in assessing e-bike access to trails. User conflicts and perceptions play just as large a role, and it seems as though attitudes remain predominantly opposed to the new technology.

In a member survey, IMBA polled more than 4,000 mountain bikers on their experiences with, and perceptions toward, e-bikes. More than a third strongly agreed that e-bikes would increase trail conflicts, and more than half strongly agreed that e-bikes would threaten access for unmotorized riders. Most tellingly, three quarters of respondents agreed or strongly agreed that e-bikes are a form of motorized recreation that do not belong on non-motorized trails.

I think the issue of eBikes on the dirt will be much more heated than on pavement...

Those people in the tribe argument need to get over themselves.