Do gravel race participants care about "lining up with the pros"?

[spoonrobot]

Saw this post from EB in the gravel bikes thread and think it deserves it's own discussion. An Op-Ed from gravel racer Lauren De Crescenzo about the status and possible future of Gravel events.

This is obviously an multi-faceted issue. If women need their own race for a fair event; that necessitates a separate race for the men, which requires a division between pro/amateur. The justifications for why this is bad seem imaginary, theoretical.

https://www.cyclingnews.com/blogs/la...in-bike-event/

In addition to my racing, I am actively engaged in shaping the future of gravel through my involvement in an athlete advisory group collaborating with Life Time...

On the mass starts, especially in gravel, I think a change is crucial if we want to establish true women's races, rather than relying on chance factors such as which male group you're caught up with, pro or amateur...

...The current setup often feels arbitrary, relying too heavily on external factors like male assistance or motives.

For women to compete on a level playing field, we require our own starting line. This is essential to guarantee that the strongest racer wins.

My view is that most attendees do not have a strong preference for "lining up with the pros" and care more about the total event atmosphere. I think separate start times would change little about the current events, however separate days would have a negative effect. People want the excitement of a big event where is feels like they did something and things happened that bring them attention and status from their peers. This idea that Gravel grew from small niche events to 100x national events based on "lining up with the pros" is nonsense.

The groundswell was there before there were pros and the current statistics show the largest areas of growth are at the distances where there are no professional riders - the intermediate and short distance events.



I also think that what happens at the Lifetime Grand Prix and other national level events, can, but often does not, effect local gravel events. Larger events are a smaller part of the whole than online posting would have one believe.

Fundamentally, the success of Gravel is based around the idea of accomplishment and esteem to every rider. The fact that pros and amateurs would be separated means little in my view.

The decline of other cycling sports is based around the relative pointlessness of the pursuit, not the categorization and professionalization of those sports. Providing a sense of purpose to individual attendees is what gravel does better than other disciplines, right now. I do not believe the changes to the professional categories will change the culture in such a way as to be detrimental to this idea.

Is there a large population of gravel racers who are drawn to events to line up with the pros? Will separate start times and separate races drive these people elsewhere? Is there a difference between stated and revealed preference in this instance? Does it matter?

[EB]

I think the critique of this is more directed at cycling media and the promotional strategy around these events as they strive to become more "professional." You are correct that these events grew up from the grassroots. I think the fear is that as more and more money, media and marketing centers these pros and their concerns, the same exclusivity that turned people off from USAC road racing will impact these events as well.

In other words instead of a hug from the founder at the finish line for every finisher - or whatever - the focus of the event becomes the podium, the purse, etc.

[CAAD]

Gravel races have become such a cash grab, I don't plan on attending another one any time soon. Paying $1+ per mile for the privilege of riding my bike on open public roads with a number plate, no thanks. Plus I am tired of funding the purse for the pros, so yeah they should have their own events.

[45K10]

Way before gravel events became a thing, I raced as a cat 2 in Florida. I hated it when some of the US domestic Pros would come down to the races in February / March and kick everyone's ass. I was only paying $20 to race. Why on earth would someone paying $200 to do some gravel race care about what the Pros are doing.

[trener1]

Originally Posted by 45K10

Way before gravel events became a thing, I raced as a cat 2 in Florida. I hated it when some of the US domestic Pros would come down to the races in February / March and kick everyone's ass. I was only paying $20 to race. Why on earth would someone paying $200 to do some gravel race care about what the Pros are doing.

I haven't read through this whole thread, but just to your point.
I am in NYC, and back in the day when the Navigaters team was based in NJ, sometimes they would show up to the races in Prospect Park, and for me it was an absolute blast having the race lined out single file for 40 miles and averaging like 27-28mph, of course I didn't place when they showed up but it was fun going so fast and "racing" the full race.

[zs3889]

Originally Posted by CAAD

Gravel races have become such a cash grab, I don't plan on attending another one any time soon. Paying $1+ per mile for the privilege of riding my bike on open public roads with a number plate, no thanks. Plus I am tired of funding the purse for the pros, so yeah they should have their own events.

I just found out from someone trying to sell/transfer their entry to the Belgian Waffle Ride - a single entry sells for $280...

[Spdntrxi]

lining up next to them no... riding the sameday yes.

I think the pros should be at the front, but they dont need their own start window. Having just done sea otter gravel they are so above and beyond most. With a small climb at the front they get all the separation they need from the likes of me.

[tootall]

I think they do. Events seem to blow up when they get big names showing up, then all the amateurs flock to them. How did Gravel Locos get so big? It seemed to me like they had a lot of star power talking about it (Laurens Ten Dam, Ted King, etc.) which put them on the map.

I did Rad Dirt Fest in 2022, it was a Lifetime event but wasn't yet in the Grand Prix. There were around 500 people there, about the same as the year before. In 2023 they added it to the Grand Prix and numbers jumped by 30+%, much more than the Grand Prix racers alone.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by tootall

I think they do. Events seem to blow up when they get big names showing up, then all the amateurs flock to them. How did Gravel Locos get so big? It seemed to me like they had a lot of star power talking about it (Laurens Ten Dam, Ted King, etc.) which put them on the map.

This is true for virtually all Pro/Am events, whether it is cycling, running, golf, or other sport. Part of the reason that the entry fees for Pro/Am events is larger than for grass roots events is due to having to pay entry fees to top Pro athletes.

[Spdntrxi]

I think the pro/elite-women start is hard part. Obviously there will be fit men ams that will blow the doors off them or atleast provide too much draft to certain women as an assist. Which is also not good for the sport. Certainly starting a different day is not good either.

I have not done BWR Ca in a few years, but I know one year the pro (waffle ) going on Sat and ams doing wafer going on Sun.. was a total non-starter. I dont know if that how it actually went down, but that is what was presented to me and I never bothered to sign up again

[spoonrobot]

Originally Posted by tootall

I think they do. Events seem to blow up when they get big names showing up, then all the amateurs flock to them. How did Gravel Locos get so big? It seemed to me like they had a lot of star power talking about it (Laurens Ten Dam, Ted King, etc.) which put them on the map.

I did Rad Dirt Fest in 2022, it was a Lifetime event but wasn't yet in the Grand Prix. There were around 500 people there, about the same as the year before. In 2023 they added it to the Grand Prix and numbers jumped by 30+%, much more than the Grand Prix racers alone.

The question is does this increase this require a mass start of everyone at the same time?

It doesn't seem like it, Gravel Locos follows the exact same trend as Unbound charted above - started as one distance and grew exponentially once more distances were added. The first edition has a total ridership for the 1 course on offer - the Pro course - of 148 riders, in 2023 there were 3 courses on offer (comp timed) and the Pro course had 185 riders while the other two had 500 riders total. A huge increase, arguable whether "lining up with the pros" is at play since all distances start at the same time but are staged separately.

The Rad Dirt Fest has the same trend, AFAICT it's been run 3 years. Prior to 2023 the Pro course was 165 miles and represented ~15% of the total registrations. In 2023 the Pro course was shortened to 110 miles, it was added to the LTGP and attendance of the pro course increased to ~35% of the total.

The Rad has different start times for different distances - so the apparent growth present is still being driven by something other than lining up with the pros.

Bar napkin meta-analysis seems to indicate separate fields might blunt the growth of ridership in the pro/elite fields (not distance just the actual field) by a couple or few dozens in the pro/elite field but have no effect or increase the growth in all other categories.

This seems to be an interesting (and surprisingly common) type of case where the opinion is "yes" but the data says "no".

[spoonrobot]

There are also alternatives - rules based order where male riders (in totality or merely by class/field) are prohibited from riding with female riders. Everyone starts together but no drafting, no male domestiques, and no participation at all with other females as created and noted by the organizer.

It seems LTGP has the resources to carry this out without issue but I suspect it does not generate the press and clicks that discussion of other options does. After a few iterations I suspect this will be the normal rule structure in a few years.

[spoonrobot]

I think the fundamental issue here is that the more popular Gravel social commentators were at a loss to explain the growth of Gravel events - having little participation in other cycling disciplines - so they looked to the most popular types of cycling (UCI Professional) and applied that framework to Gravel.

People see the pros and want to do what the pros do, so the closer they can get to the pros the more they want to do it.

Sort of but not really.

[benb]

Originally Posted by spoonrobot

There are also alternatives - rules based order where male riders (in totality or merely by class/field) are prohibited from riding with female riders. Everyone starts together but no drafting, no male domestiques, and no participation at all with other females as created and noted by the organizer.

It seems LTGP has the resources to carry this out without issue but I suspect it does not generate the press and clicks that discussion of other options does. After a few iterations I suspect this will be the normal rule structure in a few years.

Don't you think the logistics of this get very hard? Does LTGP already have officials in cars/motorcycles watching stuff?

You're almost at a TDF level of problem (maybe worse?) in terms of stopping cheating if you set those kind of rules on such a long race in such isolated areas.

[spoonrobot]

Originally Posted by benb

Don't you think the logistics of this get very hard? Does LTGP already have officials in cars/motorcycles watching stuff?

You're almost at a TDF level of problem (maybe worse?) in terms of stopping cheating if you set those kind of rules on such a long race in such isolated areas.

They spent a lot of money flying around races in a helicopter last year for their Youtube series.

It only takes a handful of motorbikes or secret observers to really police the issue.

Even better, racers are able to self-police, and self-monitor to an extent. Not saying they should have to, but this rules-based idea may be workable after some iterations better than other options depending on the event, etc.

Many races include lead vehicles for the lead pack. Of course lots of stuff can happen outside the lead pack that influences the race but this isn't a ready made one-and-done solution to the issue. Things need to be tried and tested before best idea(s) become clear.