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#1
03-27-2010, 05:40 PM
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Needs to be said - PayPal does not provide buyer's protection
Okay, I feel the need to present this to the forum after reading a classified posting regarding buyer's protection (I am not speaking negatively about anyone on this forum).
In general, sellers and buyers have a misconception that payment through PayPal provides buyer's protection. As a whole, this perception is false. PayPal provides 100% buyer's protection for a purchase through Ebay and likely other commercial sites that allows payment throught PayPal (PP). However, purchases conducted on sites such as this only provides limited protection. The protection is a) whether it was shipped, and b) whether it is was received. PP does care whether the products arrives are a) intact and/or undamaged, and b) whether all products are there. In fact, PayPal recently put forth new guidelines in JAN 2010. How do I know this? From personal experience of course. In late OCT 2009, I purchased what I believed was a complete DA7900 group with FSA crank on Roadbikereview.com classified section. I paid through PayPal. The seller, against my requests, shipped via UPS to my PO Box. After some talking, he changed it to my work. When it arrived, I had a crank, a chain, and a cassette ... nothing else. The seller did not respond for 3 days and I instituted a PP complaint. PP took one day ... ONE DAY ... to decide it would take no action because they only cared it was shipped and receved! Yes, I spoke with a rep about this, and that is exactly what he told me. The money is gone (I figured I have .05% of getting back that group price ... yes it was a freakin' lot of money). I am writing this to educate everyone here about how PP truly operates. Anyone that has completed transactions with me over the last few months have heard me say I hate PP ... this is why. I will go out of my way to get check versus providing them business. I had discovered that transactions completed through a linked bank account and labeled as personal by-passes fees. I really try to make my transactions easy, and I also try to help others in ways to avoid giving PP business. Cheers! 
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#2
03-27-2010, 05:48 PM
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..sorry you got ripped off ...hope you can eventually make things right..
personally , i wouldnt hesitate to pay by check to most of the serotta forumites..other places, not so sure.
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#3
03-27-2010, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
So what would PP have said if instead of the whole group, the seller had sent you an old worn out chain or a single bolt found by the side of the road? Or just a picture of the group? As long as something is sent, regardless of how it compares to what was originally advertised, they don't care? That's crazy. Was the original posting in any way ambiguous and you misinterpreted what was being offered for sale, or was the seller just a crook, clearly advertising A + B + C and shipping only A? Louis
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#4
03-27-2010, 06:59 PM
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Clearly advertised, and I have my e-mail traffic to verify. Again, PP did not care.
Was the seller a crook, perhaps? Is UPS at fault for shipping a package at 10lbs to be received at 3.03lbs, perhaps? Currently, UPS is inspecting it but again I have already filed it as "money lost." Unless purchased through Ebay or commercial dealer where PP has an invested interest in transactions, they do not care. FYI, the new policy that clearly states what I have written above came out JAN 2010 ... not saying I had any influence in that but I suspect I was not the only voice reporting these incidents.
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#5
03-27-2010, 07:06 PM
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Buyer beware
Very sorry that you lost your money. Hopefully the seller will send the rest of the group.
A few years back I purchased a bike on eBay for a few thousand dollars which turned out to be fraud. eBay canceled the auction and the account of the seller after I made the purchase. When I immediately notified PayPal to hold the money as it had not been collected by the fraudulent seller (as his account had been frozen) and even though eBay owns PayPal it still took a bunch of calls and letters to get my money back (and I was lucky to get it). I recommend only dealing with reputable sellers with good feedback (or known forumites) and even then when paying with PayPal use a credit card instead of a direct draft from a bank account. I find my credit card issuer to be a lot more responsive than PayPal.
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#6
03-27-2010, 07:19 PM
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Wierd UPS will NOT ship to a PO Box; file a claim through UPS they are very good with any claim I have ever filed. Did you pay for enough insurance to cover the products? I hope this wasn't the groupo for the RSL. Satellite
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#7
03-27-2010, 07:27 PM
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I'm sorry your experience with Paypal didn't work out in your favor as I for one had the completely different experience when I had an Issue and had to file a complaint against a Seller.
I purchased a new Kuota frame and fork on Ebay and paid thru PayPal. When the frame showed up I was excited to say the least so I unpacked it and checked it over, upon inspection I noted that the lower headset bearing was missing. Unfortunately the Stronglight headset on the Kuota frame is one in which it is a 1 1/8” on the top bearing and a 1 1/4" on the bottom bearing, if you have ever had to find one of these headsets you know it is not an easy feat. I contacted the Buyer who over a number of days said the following 1) The headset was not included (even though it was pictured in the auction & is part of the bike as shipped from the manufacture) 2) That I damaged the frame when I put it on my bike stand (I sent him a picture of the frame as he requested, yes it was in the stand but it was only balanced on the TT and the clamp was never closed. 3) That his auction allowed for a 3 day return period (I contacted him the day I received the bike but did not file for 5 days as I tried to work things out with him) I filed a complaint with PayPal who within 2 days ruled in my favor, they directed me to send the bike back to the Seller and that I would receive a full refund inc. S/H once it was delivered back to the Seller. I contacted the Seller and sent him the email that Ebay sent me telling me to return the item to him, the Seller in turn told me he would refuse the return of the bike. I informed Ebay what the Seller stated to me & they told me that if the Seller refused the item that the courier would return the bike to me and I could keep the bike and still get a full refund, they in turn contacted the Seller and told him that I was receiving a full refund and that I would also be allowed to keep the bike as well if he refused delivery. The item was delivered to the Sellers address, he refused like he said he would, I notified Ebay that the delivery attempt took place & received a full refund that day, 5 days later I received the bike back as well. About a month later I contacted Kuota and bought the headset then I sold the bike on ebay for more than what I originally paid for it.
__________________
Headwinds and Hills are nothing more than a reality check… 
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#8
03-27-2010, 08:22 PM
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@jmc22
PP is great when purchased through Ebay, which is why I made a point to show that PP is terrible outside Ebay and other official commercial sites. @Satellite By some agreement, UPS is not allowed to deliver to PO Boxes. I did file a claim, and they picked it up last Thursday ... no progress as of yesterday. Before I let them pick it up, I weighed it and took a picture. RSL? Do I own one of those? It was intended for my Lynskey R320.
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#9
03-27-2010, 08:28 PM
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Sorry I thought you had placed an order for an RSL my mistake. Satellite
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#10
03-27-2010, 08:32 PM
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RSL ... not yet
 Anyways, I wanted to share the experience to inform members the true risk and not false sense of security of using PP outside Ebay and authorized commercial sites (such as this wonderful place). Good night to all and to all sweet cycling dreams 
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#11
03-28-2010, 07:53 AM
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I got scammed for $1,400 for a watch I bought last year along with 5 other people who lost the same amount. Paypal had been warned and complaints filed against the seller that they had been scammed and Paypal never shut the sellers account down or did anything whatsoever to reprimand him or start an inquiry etc. Why? Because in each case the seller sent a $5 pos watch in a box with certified delivery and signature confirmation. Paypal says that if the seller sent you something then they are relieved of all responsability. The seller could have sent an empty box, a brick the real item or the $5 watch he actually sent. Paypal divorced themselves of the case and all 5 buyers (we are considering a class action suit against Paypal). The 5 of us hunted this guy down and found him in England and brought the authorities in. Overseas fraud is almost impossible to prosecute and even harder to manage from abroad. My credit card company (Amex) took care of me but the turd that defrauded us is still running around scott free and all due to Paypal and thier refusal to protect buyers even after fraud complaints have been filed against a seller. This is a situation where absolute power corrupts. I don't us e Paypal if I don't need to. I truly hate the scumbags but they are often the only game in town for fast, easy "trusted" payment...end of rant Last edited by slowandsteady; 03-28-2010 at 07:55 AM.
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#12
03-28-2010, 08:11 AM
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More to read . . .
__________________
--- __0 __0 __0 ----_-\<,_ -\<, _(_)(_)/_(_)/ (_) A thing of beauty is a joy forever--Keats
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#13
03-28-2010, 09:06 AM
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Sorry, but I think you guys are merely mis-informed and making demands for services that do not exist.
Outside of ebay, paypal is a money handling entity.... Just like a usps cert check.... do you think the usps would go to bat for you and get you a refund for a transaction gone wrong? Buying watches from an overseas seller with a dubious history? Give me a break.... and I bet a price too good to be true as well.... The fact that there is some kind of buyer protection for ebay purchases made with pp is truly amazing..... I guess without that, the number of people willing to buy things from strangers would be significantly reduced.
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#14
03-28-2010, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
__________________
Headwinds and Hills are nothing more than a reality check…
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#15
03-28-2010, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Please note: PAYPAL was told by 4 individuals that they had been victims of fraud from one particular seller. PAYPAL at no time took any action to suspend the sellers account to investigate any of the claims over a several week period. As such each subsequent buyer was able to be scammed because PAYPAL refused to do anything in response to a claim against the seller PAYPAL makes money on each sale (almost 4%!). That is why they want as many sales as humanly possible to take place. You do know that e-Bay owns Paypal right? that is how they demand payment via Paypal and exclude other forms of payment and that is how they control buyers and sellers financial transactions and how they offer (useless/scam/bogus) Buyer Protection...
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