Because tubeless is better

[Seramount]

tubeless-free for 55 years...

no reason to break the streak.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by MikeD

The link you posted doesn’t say tubeless tires are faster.

That's right. The data on the BicycleRollingResistance site shows that the the fastest tires happen to be able to be run tubeless, but only when sealant is used. The data also shows that sealant increases rolling resistance by about the same amount as as a latex tube. So it is not correct to say that "tubeless tires are faster".

Originally Posted by MikeD

If sealant works then less flats. If not (and it happens), I'd rather deal with a tube flat than messy sealant all over the place. I know people that went back to tubes after one instance of sealant spraying all over and having to deal with messy sealant when needing to put a tube in. Then there's dealing with the difficulties of mounting/removing tubeless tires; especially Continental 5000 TL tires.

For me, using sealant on a road bike is a net deficit. For the last 10 years or so, I've been getting one flat every 5,000 - 6,000 miles or there-abouts, or less than once a year. It takes me 5 - 10 minutes to fix a flat (that includes changing the tube, pumping up the tire, and getting back on the road). I have several bikes, and multiple sets of wheels. Tires with sealant take more time to setup, and require periodic maintenance. I'd be spending multiple more time dealing with sealant than I currently do changing flat tubes. And a fair fraction of the flats I get involve casing cuts that are too large to seal with sealant, in which case I'd not only have to deal with the mess of sealant getting spewed about, but I'd also still have to carry a spare tube and levers.

Some point out that other vehicles (cars, motorcycles, aircraft) have gone tubeless years ago, so why not go tubeless with bicycles? But most "tubeless" bicycle tires are really more like "semi-tubeless"; they aren't air tight like true tubeless tires, but require a sealant liquid to make them air tight. Unlike the tubeless tires used on other vehicles, bicycle "tubeless" tires require far more maintenance. Removing tubes from other vehicles cut down on maintenance and hassle, while removing tubes on bicycles has increased maintenance and hassles.

[mtechnica]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

That's right. The data on the BicycleRollingResistance site shows that the the fastest tires happen to be able to be run tubeless, but only when sealant is used. The data also shows that sealant increases rolling resistance by about the same amount as as a latex tube. So it is not correct to say that "tubeless tires are faster".



For me, using sealant on a road bike is a net deficit. For the last 10 years or so, I've been getting one flat every 5,000 - 6,000 miles or there-abouts, or less than once a year. It takes me 5 - 10 minutes to fix a flat (that includes changing the tube, pumping up the tire, and getting back on the road). I have several bikes, and multiple sets of wheels. Tires with sealant take more time to setup, and require periodic maintenance. I'd be spending multiple more time dealing with sealant than I currently do changing flat tubes. And a fair fraction of the flats I get involve casing cuts that are too large to seal with sealant, in which case I'd not only have to deal with the mess of sealant getting spewed about, but I'd also still have to carry a spare tube and levers.

Some point out that other vehicles (cars, motorcycles, aircraft) have gone tubeless years ago, so why not go tubeless with bicycles? But most "tubeless" bicycle tires are really more like "semi-tubeless"; they aren't air tight like true tubeless tires, but require a sealant liquid to make them air tight. Unlike the tubeless tires used on other vehicles, bicycle "tubeless" tires require far more maintenance. Removing tubes from other vehicles cut down on maintenance and hassle, while removing tubes on bicycles has increased maintenance and hassles.

Try again they’re still faster

https://www.bicyclerollingresistance...beless-sealant

Also feel free to some some homework about what pro teams are up to with tubeless tires.

I know tubeless road tires are an emerging technology so it’s easy to be behind the times. The fact is they’re faster generally speaking and get less flats. Also something like a gp5000tl is faster and ridiculously less fragile than tubed clinchers that roll almost as fast.

I could see why you don’t want to learn about using tubeless tires if you almost never get flats anyway. There a learning curve for sure. But all else being equal you’ll get less flats with tubeless period end of story. Anything that would flat a tubeless tire would flat a tubed tire, except you have a chance for the tire to seal itself with tubeless. If you live somewhere with goat heads for example and aren’t using tubeless you’re messing up bad.

[Hellgate]

Sh*t tubeless is a exponential reduction in flats for me. In Austin, on tubes and Corsas I was getting a flat every 10 days. The roads a littered with crap. I can't express the amount of glass and construction debris is on the roads.

September to now with one flat. I'm all over it. This weekend I'm going back for the same route. This time with a functional CO2 head and the Dynaplug kit.

Funny thing is I have Dynaplug kits and huge 32gm CO2 kits on the motorcycles. I'd simply forgotten about them.

Also, good call out on shaking the Orange Seal fully. I may have failed to do that well enough.

It's a bike boys, go ride and internet less.

I've shared this before, below are just a few of the examples of Austin rode crap

Ciao!

[Louis]

Originally Posted by mtechnica

except you have a chance for the tire to seal itself with tubeless

Honest question: what if it doesn't seal on it's own? Are you SOL? Can a tube be used? DynaPlug?

[mtechnica]

Originally Posted by Louis

Honest question: what if it doesn't seal on it's own? Are you SOL? Can a tube be used? DynaPlug?

You just throw in a tube. Plugging it and pumping it works a lot of the time too. I’ve actually been able to just pump it up and not plug it and eventually it heals itself. It can be a mess but I don’t really see what the huge deal is. It’s way less gross than handling a dirty chain for example.

[Matt92037]

LOL! I have seen less carnage when the Highway Patrol rolls out a spike strip to put an end to a car chase.

Originally Posted by Hellgate

Sh*t tubeless is a exponential reduction in flats for me. In Austin, on tubes and Corsas I was getting a flat every 10 days. The roads a littered with crap. I can't express the amount of glass and construction debris is on the roads.

September to now with one flat. I'm all over it. This weekend I'm going back for the same route. This time with a functional CO2 head and the Dynaplug kit.

Funny thing is I have Dynaplug kits and huge 32gm CO2 kits on the motorcycles. I'd simply forgotten about them.

Also, good call out on shaking the Orange Seal fully. I may have failed to do that well enough.

It's a bike boys, go ride and internet less.

I've shared this before, below are just a few of the examples of Austin rode crap

Ciao!

[Matt92037]

I am currently taking a break from tubeless but when i used them i never had a hole seal itself until tire PSI got down to the 40-45lb range. PSI above that was like an aerosol can spraying orange seal everywhere. I wasnt using plugs back then either but cant wait to try them in the future.

Originally Posted by Louis

Honest question: what if it doesn't seal on it's own? Are you SOL? Can a tube be used? DynaPlug?

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by mtechnica

Try again they’re still faster

https://www.bicyclerollingresistance...beless-sealant

This is the article you should have quoted https://www.bicyclerollingresistance...eless-clincher

It doesn't support your position.

[tomato coupe]

Originally Posted by Hellgate

I've shared this before, below are just a few of the examples of Austin rode crap.

You think you're not going to flat a tubeless tire if you hit screws and nails like those?

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by mtechnica

Try again they’re still faster

https://www.bicyclerollingresistance...beless-sealant

Sorry, but that reference provides no answer to the question, because it doesn't compare sealant to latex tubes. As far as I can tell, BicycleRollingResistance never compared the same time with sealant vs. a Latex tube. The closest they have come is comparing a manufacturers comparable tubeless and standard clinchers, the tubeless with sealant and the standard clincher with a latex tube:

https://www.bicyclerollingresistance...eless-clincher

The conclusion from this test was:

The difference in rolling resistance between the One Tubeless and One V-Guard with a standard tube is small. The One Tubeless comes out just a little bit faster. Fitting the One V-Guard with a light butyl tube gives a small improvement over the standard butyl tube. Resulting in rolling resistance that is lower than that of the One Tubeless. Using a latex tube results in another small improvement.

If you really want the lowest rolling resistance, latex inner tubes are the winner.

Still, the above test is not definitive, because it used different tires for comparing sealant vs latex tubes. However, AeroCoach has tested the rolling resistance of many tires, and they have tested the rolling resistance of several types of tubes, and they have tested the rolling resistance of sealant:

https://www.aero-coach.co.uk/time-tr...esistance-data

Their conclusion:

There is also overall no difference in rolling resistance between the same tyre set up tubeless, and using a latex tube.

Originally Posted by mtechnica

Also feel free to some some homework about what pro teams are up to with tubeless tires.

You mean teams like Bora-Hansgrohe and Deceuninck-QuickStep, who have been racing on clinchers with inner tubes, and have won Tour stages and Belgian Classics with them? Or EF Pro Cycling team director Andreas Klier, who has talked about racing on tubeless tires without sealant?

Team mechanics generally don't like sealant, and would rather do without out it. If eliminating flats was the most important thing, we'd all be riding airless tires. But we don't because there are too many compromises with airless tires. There are lots of compromises with sealant as well, which is why the pro teams are looking for ways to avoid using it.

(By the way, I'm not against the idea of tubeless tires. But if pools of liquid sealant is required, they become not worth it.)

[Jaybee]

I've sealed similar size punctures from mesquite thorns and roofing tacks in tubeless mtb tires. I accept that the lower initial pressure probably helps in not forcing the sealant outside the tire before it has had a chance to coagulate.

I'd definitely expect to be able to successfully Dynaplug punctures that size and reinflate without installing a tube.

[Louis]

Originally Posted by mtechnica

You just throw in a tube. Plugging it and pumping it works a lot of the time too. I’ve actually been able to just pump it up and not plug it and eventually it heals itself. It can be a mess but I don’t really see what the huge deal is. It’s way less gross than handling a dirty chain for example.

Thanks.

So I guess the question (which I don't expect you to answer) is how many flats are "saved" by having sealant in there vs a tube that would have flatted.

[mtechnica]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

Sorry, but that reference provides no answer to the question, because it doesn't compare sealant to latex tubes. As far as I can tell, BicycleRollingResistance never compared the same time with sealant vs. a Latex tube. The closest they have come is comparing a manufacturers comparable tubeless and standard clinchers, the tubeless with sealant and the standard clincher with a latex tube:

https://www.bicyclerollingresistance...eless-clincher

The conclusion from this test was:



Still, the above test is not definitive, because it used different tires for comparing sealant vs latex tubes. However, AeroCoach has tested the rolling resistance of many tires, and they have tested the rolling resistance of several types of tubes, and they have tested the rolling resistance of sealant:

https://www.aero-coach.co.uk/time-tr...esistance-data

Their conclusion:





You mean teams like Bora-Hansgrohe and Deceuninck-QuickStep, who have been racing on clinchers with inner tubes, and have won Tour stages and Belgian Classics with them? Or EF Pro Cycling team director Andreas Klier, who has talked about racing on tubeless tires without sealant?

Team mechanics generally don't like sealant, and would rather do without out it. If eliminating flats was the most important thing, we'd all be riding airless tires. But we don't because there are too many compromises with airless tires. There are lots of compromises with sealant as well, which is why the pro teams are looking for ways to avoid using it.

(By the way, I'm not against the idea of tubeless tires. But if pools of liquid sealant is required, they become not worth it.)

You’re right it appears that in some cases a latex tube is as fast although the lowest rolling resistance tires tested are tubeless tires that are made to be used without tubes and with a small amount of sealant. There are teams that have been using clinchers with tubes but I’ve also heard about teams starting to look at tubeless tires for time trials because of the lower rolling resistance. Whether or not they like dealing with sealant I can’t say. That said I think using latex tubes is impractical even compared to sealant which the downsides of imo is way overblown by people on this forum.

[oldpotatoe]

answer to mark.

Originally Posted by mtechnica

Try again they’re still faster

https://www.bicyclerollingresistance...beless-sealant

Also feel free to some some homework about what pro teams are up to with tubeless tires.

I know tubeless road tires are an emerging technology so it’s easy to be behind the times. The fact is they’re faster generally speaking and get less flats. Also something like a gp5000tl is faster and ridiculously less fragile than tubed clinchers that roll almost as fast.

I could see why you don’t want to learn about using tubeless tires if you almost never get flats anyway. There a learning curve for sure. But all else being equal you’ll get less flats with tubeless period end of story. Anything that would flat a tubeless tire would flat a tubed tire, except you have a chance for the tire to seal itself with tubeless. If you live somewhere with goat heads for example and aren’t using tubeless you’re messing up bad.

Popcorn out..